i didn't think the last thread title was dramatcic enough
its FABULOUS news!! Kudos to the Kmeleon devs for creating such a simple, strightforward, functional, economic, speedy and attractive browser!!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/8537763.stm

For those who do not know, Europe has forced MS to put 12 altternative browsers for Windows users to install besides TOTALLY CRAP IE and KMLEON MADE IT TO THE SHORTLIST!!!!!!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

* party party *



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/02/2010 10:22PM by enaitzjga.

oops i spelt Kmeleon wrong in the title -.-'

Old news.

And it is not short list since there are 12 browsers involved.

Actually, I must side with MS on this one. I think it really sucks that MS is forced to include in it's OS's some of it's competitor's software, even if the competing software is free. If customers don't want to use IE they don't have to. If they want to download and install the freebees, then like the rest of us, they are free to do so. The cost of forcing MS to include additional and unnecessary software with it's OS's, as well as the litigation costs will be passed on to the consumers. I figure it makes about as much sense as forcing Ford to include Chevy emblems with each Ford they sell.

Charlie

~~If it ain't broke, why screw it up?~~

Quote
caktus
Actually, I must side with MS on this one. I think it really sucks that MS is forced to include in it's OS's some of it's competitor's software, even if the competing software is free. If customers don't want to use IE they don't have to. If they want to download and install the freebees, then like the rest of us, they are free to do so. The cost of forcing MS to include additional and unnecessary software with it's OS's, as well as the litigation costs will be passed on to the consumers. I figure it makes about as much sense as forcing Ford to include Chevy emblems with each Ford they sell.

I kind of agree with you, but don't forget that there are people who don't even know what the browser is...

Is something to think, if the users don't know what a browser is, will they know if you provide to them a list of other browsers. Does that the problem bigger? Were they happy without knowing which browser is better? Do they really care? Are Chevys free? I want one.

I fully agree with the above comments in defence of MS but, I'm hoping K-Meleon does make the final list, and the browser finally gets the attention it so richly deserves.

It meanwhile IS on the final list, since March 01, but I certainly don't think that MS had to integrate other people's programs into their OS! Click this link and look at it closer:
http://www.browserchoice.eu

That is what they had to integrate, basically just a link to a little html-page, that has links to the other browsers websites. How hard is that...? Okay, they had to add an uninstall command for their IE, add a link to the choice page to the windows updates. And somehow make that the last 7 browsers randomly switch on that choice list, if I got that right, and if that is still valid, but still... All that happens when people click on those links to either "install" or "tell me more", is that they land on those other browser's website, for KM the "download" link on the left side here and the "Home" link.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/03/2010 07:18AM by siria.

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panzer
Old news.

And it is not short list since there are 12 browsers involved.

totally agree with panzer. no need for Booty to make a big deal out of KM being on Euro's browser list. already figured that out a week ago.

CNET's Stephen Shankland covers browser choice in a recent article.

---

@ cactus and others. I have no sympathy with MS in this issue.

MS was cross subsidizing and dumping prices to get Netscape out of the browser market.

IMHO its is not like BMW item in Mercedes. Its more like buy a bus and You get limousine for free.


MS is bundling a full fledged browser while they are only offering a rudimentary word processor..., why?

Quoting a comment from the article I mentioned above.

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Mergatroid Mania

If the regulators in North America had any balls we would have had the same choice years ago.

This is something that should have been done long time ago. Instead of "advertising" for the other browsers, Windows should have just come with a bare bones browser (like it comes with a bare bones word processor and paint program). You don't see MS including Word in Windows, nor a full fledged program along the lines of Photoshop, so why the fully featured browser?

A bare bones browser that, when loaded, had a home page with links to all browsers available would have been perfect. The home page could be run by a consortium of browser companies or users that choose which browsers to include in the page.

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2010 05:46AM by guenter.

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caktus
Actually, I must side with MS on this one. I think it really sucks that MS is forced to include in it's OS's some of it's competitor's software, even if the competing software is free. If customers don't want to use IE they don't have to. If they want to download and install the freebees, then like the rest of us, they are free to do so. The cost of forcing MS to include additional and unnecessary software with it's OS's, as well as the litigation costs will be passed on to the consumers. I figure it makes about as much sense as forcing Ford to include Chevy emblems with each Ford they sell.

I'm with MS too, but there is a mistake in your speech. MS is not forced to include them anywhere. MS only offers to use others if you are using IE, but Windows doesn't store the data to be installed and used and I don't think they would be at Windows Update servers either. They should point to the browsers sites or maybe they would infringe licenses.

EDIT: Indeed, the video that comes with the link at BBC.co.uk posted in the first message shows it. You download from the browser server or a mirror. Nothing with MS costs then.

The thing is that Europe is treating users as stupids as if we aren't able to make choice in this case to avoid monopolistic markets and forcing a company to offer third party software instead its own, treating users as stupids again because if we buy Windows we know why.

Ok, ok, there are users that have no idea, but that doesn't excuse the attitude of the European Community.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2010 04:21PM by JohnHell.

Here, in Slovenia, people are stupid because they are dropping IE and switching to FF.

It is like when you are on yacht with no water and you think it would be better to drink sea water that your pee. Basically, both is bad for you.

Most Slovenians do not even know Opera exists. My co-workers just stop talking and stared at me when I said i use K-Meleon. They think I am "mad" for using browser nobody has ever heard of.

And that is coming from people who started crying, when admin deleted some zip software. They were certain you cannot use software if you cannot install it or you are not admin. Hint: (portable software).



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/04/2010 04:47PM by panzer.

What happened to this proposal?

K-Meleon ~ Not a Melon!

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Daveski17
What happened to this proposal?

No idea.

@ JohnHell & panzer: It was MS idea to atone for past transgressions by offering customers a browser choice during updates. The alternative would have been an EC decision. After that MS would have had no chance and no choice but to comply.

Now MS makes its move look like a smart trick. MS hides some browsers on the right side. MS only offers an unusual right-slide and it already announced that they will censor the choice soon based on usage statistic.

I object to a competing browser vendor like MS to decide whether K-Meleon is present or not!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/05/2010 09:42PM by guenter.

New item on CNET today. http://news.cnet.com/8301-30685_3-20000111-264.html?tag=nl.e776

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guenter
I object to a competing browser vendor like MS to decide whether K-Meleon is present or not!

Yes, trusting MS to play fair was a bit of a mistake I think. I think the 'ballot screen' does go a bit to offset the MS hegemony.

What are they so afraid of?

Honest competition?

K-Meleon ~ Not a Melon!

It is not MS who chooses the alternative browsers. It's the market share of those browsers, as measured by three independant statistics companies, that is part of the EU deal. And that certainly is what MS was talking about "usage statistic".

There has been some controversy about the 'scroll bar' on the ballot screen though. I don't know, I haven't installed the ballot screen update, in fact I've 'hidden' it as I don't need it.

K-Meleon ~ Not a Melon!

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siria
It is not MS who chooses the alternative browsers. It's the market share of those browsers, as measured by three independent statistics companies, that is part of the EU deal. And that certainly is what MS was talking about "usage statistic".

It is hotmail, google, yahoomail... that influence usage statistic by denying service to some minority browsers if they do not spoof.

MS definitely owns hotmail. So MS tries a cone job unless they inform the 3 statistic sites of their policy.

Next the "independent" statistics IMHO have to dump data from hosts that enforce spoofing. Else their data are intentionally manipulated.

p.s. The whole choice screen smells fishy.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2010 05:48PM by guenter.

You're certainly right, if one looks at it from an 'absolute' viewpoint. And it's not fair certainly.
But from a more 'relative' viewpoint, strictly just regarding the 7 "minor" browsers for the choice screen, would the other minor ones be recognized by hotmail&Co more correctly than KM...? If not, then we're all in the same boat, and IMO the ranking inside that category wouldn't be much influenced by this, whether FFox has a percent more or less. They are way ahead of us anyway. Things would be different if we had to spoof as, let's say Rumpelstilzchen Browser, and they would "get in" and throw KM "out" of the 12 But whether FFox has 25% more than KM or only 20% more, would that make that KM gets kicked out? So, as long as the order of the ranking isn't influenced, I can live with that "spoofing malus", as long as KM just stays "inside" I still find it just kinda cool, that it's included, YEAH Never had expected that!

Quote
guenter

Quote
Daveski17
What happened to this proposal?

No idea.

@ JohnHell & panzer: It was MS idea to atone for past transgressions by offering customers a browser choice during updates. The alternative would have been an EC decision. After that MS would have had no chance and no choice but to comply.

All right, but is as if you go tomorrow to buy a Renault car but you want it with a Ferrary engine. Or if you buy a Renault car but you wanted a different brand of radio. If Renault builts one brand you can't force Renault to include what they don't want to sell. You are buying their cars so then don't come blaming. Nothing makes impossible to change the radio later, but, out of the box, you buy what you buy. Live with that.

Is Renault guilt of selling more cars then its competitors with its own extras? I don't think so.

Quote
JohnHell
You are buying their cars so then don't come blaming. Nothing makes impossible to change the radio later, but, out of the box, you buy what you buy.

The problem is that MS tried to insist that browser and player are part of the OS.

Many years MS got away with it. But I do not think MS is right.

A car radio and engine can be considered part of the car.
They are connected with the car - the engine is even a needed part of the car.
The car would not work without engine.

But browser and player are not a firmly build in part of an OS.
They are free extras. They are not a needed part. The OS would work without browser & player.
& so MS is bundling cross subsidized free browser and player software with WindOS.

& the comparison must run like that:

What: if Renault would be the lone or monopolist builder of cars and also build normal stand alone radios that it gives away for free (subsidized by the car sales) with any car while You have to buy and pay a radio say by Grunding.

Surly: EC would have to act when this price dumping significantly hinders radio makers.

p.s. I read the engine/car comparison often but IMHO it limps on all 4 wheels.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2010 09:26PM by guenter.

It doesn't limp anywhere.

The radio isn't a part of a car, as you try to state. There are lots of cars that don't have a radio and/or you can buy a car without a radio.

But, you are buying a Renault car with a built-in radio so you know what are buying when you are buying that brand. You can't blame Renault to decide what to include in their cars. They are their cars!

And here we are, do you hear Grunding, Keewood, Pioneer yelling and crying because Renault builts on its cars a cheap/own radio? No, we don't (at least I never heard myself).

Back to MS case. Yes, monopoly, but monopoly is when there aren't other options out there and there are. Mac, Linux, Unix, BSD, etc. It's as monopolistic as the world of cars. Ok, their market share is 80-90%...., and? They earned it (I'm not going to discuss how and if it's moral).

Now, because they have that market share... they are forced to throw trash on them selfs... Is that fair? Really, I don't think so. It's not MS problem if people don't search for another browser or applications, despite their computers knowledge.

And I'm not saying with this that I'm not happy to see K-meleon and other browsers offered as an option, but this is not a way. Instead tell MS what to do, lets teach people about computers in this new era of Knowledge Society. Or, what the hell, lets teach people at schools to be persons and not just lambs.

Opera was complained about bundling browser with a monopolist OS...

EC made a investigation about MS using the OS market position to push other products such as browser and player. MS also has a probe and possible future ballot about pushing a proprietary office format via its share in office programs. Using the power of a monopoly for this is simply not legal. EC wants to guard consumers against it.

There are limitation to a monopoly. MS is not singular in that. Monopolist electrical energy suppliers may have to sell their high voltage transport net...

You might be right about a car radio. Though I think an car radio can be considered as a part of the car - a stand alone radio can not be. Tycon can give away free tires or an auto-radio with his car but not a standalone radio or a toaster. MS can not give away stand alone products (browser and player) that are developed and financed via revenues from selling WindOS.

This action can be regarded as price dumping against companies that make browsers.
Price dumping is giving a product away below the price it costs everyone to produce it. This is an illegal practice if it damages other producers.

At the end of the browser war MS destroyed Netscape's capability to continue browser development by giving away IE for free. That could have been punished. Price dumping is AFAIK illegal in the US too. So MS has a record for this.

MS crux is that IE browser is an independent product that is given away for free and subsidized by the OS. Since the OS works without player or browser they are not part of it. They must not be bundled but sold and distributed separately.

This is unpractical so MS wants to continue to ship its own player and browser with the OS and MS made a deal with EC. They are allowed to continue to bundle provided they make customers aware of the choices.

Currently MS choice screen camouflages half of IE competitors behind an usual side scrollbar.

While I share siria's joy that K-Meleon is on the browser choice - I fear that there will be soon excuses to remove it. K-Meleon is the only free project in a fishpond full venture money fed sharks. One example: companies that have their own browser (MS and Google) or a partner that uses their search (yahoo) in the choice bar K-Meleon from using their mail. This rigs usage statistics. This is no level playing field since new users will think it is K-Meleon's fault if anything does not work.

Additionally: I think that the limit to 12 is arbitrary there are more good browsers than 12. Why this limit then?

p.s. The whole choice screen smells fishy.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2010 02:36AM by guenter.