I just wanted to say thank you for making this lite, fast browser backwards compatible (at least to my Windows Me system). I can't say how important that is for many of us, and also speaks volumes for your developmental care, esp. now when we have been abandoned by most. I haven't had to install anything to make it work yet, altho I have unicows for VideoLAN which maybe is helping me. This is the lightest, faster browser I've used; surprised at all the menu features/themes; that there *is* a recently developed software that works on WinME! (Other browsers are being deleted on my system because modern webpages simply don't fit into my low RAM.) Delighted! Thank you very much.

Glad you like it too
I love my trusty old win98 too, with 256MB RAM, but not sure you've noticed that KM1.5.4 is the last version that was officially supported for 98/ME. The gecko1.8 engine is quickly getting outdated now, so I'm eager to have KM1.6 running on my machine too - and am lucky, the alpha version already works 'mostly' after installing KernelEx That helps on some old machines and on others not, no idea why, but it's a bit tricky it seems ;-)
That also helps for Firefox 3.x by the way. For the moment my main problem with KM1.6alpha are the messy favicons (for this forum too) and the buggy font hinting, bold text tends to merge together. For the latter there seems to be some trick possible, that is, if the Firefox3 users could fix it, that fix probably works for us too, but will have to research some more hours on the web. Was some deeper stuff with font config files or such... And dimly remember there was also a problem with printing in the past, but cannot really check if it's meanwhile fixed, with my ancient printer buried somewhere in a closet without ink ;-)

Anyway, there's hope, and here's a recent thread dealing with that KM1.6/gecko1.9/KernelEx prob on old computers, perhaps it's of interest:
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?1,110479



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/30/2010 11:37PM by siria.

I didn't know there *was* a "KernelEX". I've needed something like that for YEARS! I'll try the latest one and work backwards in versions if I have trouble. Thank you for this tip! Feel free to post links to any other ME fixes (found EX in your other forum discussion -- Thanks!).

I can't get my tongue back into my mouth. It's touching the floor. It fell out because my mouth is still open. I can't close my mouth. Because I'm in shock!!! My GOSH, KernelEX WORKS. I am on a Windows ME computer with 128RAM no less. Unicows.exe installed. But my new browser window (before I try the superior new K-Meleon of course) reads:

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.10) Gecko/20100914 Firefox/3.6.10

How long has this program been around??? How many other XP software programs can I use now??? This gives my computer a new life; and I'll be upgrading the RAM (limit 256 on this machine) first thing!

Again, thank you siria for mentioning this UNBELIEVABLE program. Despite an error in pre-start boot-up the first time (not a pop-up), it works fine. I can't thank you and the developer and forums here enough. Amazing, I strongly suggest trying it to any on the fence about it. For example, the default forum window now comes up with Hypertext instead of simple text here.

YEAH!!! One more in the happy camp - glad it works for you too!

And you have only half my RAM in a newer (bigger) system? Uah... ;-)
I was kinda excited too when I finally found this, but don't hang your hopes too high now, KEx may work wonders with some programs but really is far from perfect yet - although it keeps getting closer... and closer.... There are still many modern programs which simply don't work, or only partly and then crash anyway, and we'll still have to keep researching and tweaking. And occasionally a genuine old 98-program may start chocking with KEx, but that can be fixed with the new compatibility tab.

Little tip: In the KEx folder is now probably a kernel32.dll.bak, your original one. Make another safety copy of it and put it into the windows system folder, or wherever your active dll version is. I once managed to accidentally delete that bak file, when uninstalling KEx and then installing again, without a reboot in between! Uah, the effect was kinda scary at first, but two simply reboots had my system autoheal again, as usual, uff :cool: At any rate afterwards the kernel32.bak was gone and KEx couldn't be updated anymore, because it insisted in restoring the original windows dll first, and for lack of a backup file suggested to get it from the system CD! Actually Duffy had that same prob before me and had already figured out the solution by asking the developer, so that made it kinda easy for myself afterwards

By the way have you found the KEx forum yet...? It's part of a great windows forum with tons of win98/ME updates (of which I know nothing yet except KernelEx, shame on me ;-)
http://www.msfn.org/board/forum/91-windows-9x-member-projects/
http://www.msfn.org/board/forum/8-windows-959898seme/

Ah, and forgot: The current Opera also seems to work fine in Win98SE, even without KEx - whow!

And just noticed that in Firefox3.5x (with gecko 1.9.1.2) the FAVICONS do work fine, unlike KM1.6!! So it looks like it's a genuine KM prob, that looks bad for finding a fix myself...

My Firefox 3.6.10 About window says: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.0; en-US; rv:1.9.2.10) Gecko/20100914 Firefox/3.6.10 (I'm on Microsoft Windows ME 4.90.3000 This is with the new EX 4.5 RC4 now. The 4 Final version said NT 5.1 instead of NT 5.0 On 4 Final (EX) flash wouldn't install for youtube, etc. In the update (RC 4) it installs directly from youtube page in FF and works fine now (in 3.6.10). All my old browsers still identify as Win 9x. SeaMonkey, I.E., Google Chrome, and Safari (for Windows) won't install saying need newer windows and with link errors. So it only fools a new install of latest Firefox and now with the update the Flash plug-in. I'm glad it does that, but I can't find any other program it works on. (I'm repeating myself from the sourceforge open discussion forum of the EX project.) I realize this is off-topic for K-Meleon but it started here and may help other people trying to use the new version, which I haven't installed and tried yet. On new FF and K-Meleon (1.5.4) it's using my system background colors; I like it because it automatically uses my themes and matches (currently black), but I wonder if it's techinically an error not showing the browser background color (if there is one) because someone else mentioned they're not working. Old mozilla still shows modern theme with it's own colors. Also, my new FF still starts up in 'Offline' mode every time and I can't find a setting for this. Thought it might be an EX thing. Same with 4 Final and RC4. So, it'd be great to work with other browsers/programs, like you said
I haven't found anyplace on EX to change a setting like say 'XP' instead of 'NT 5.0' or anything; no user-menus or program links at all I'm aware of; I just heard someone discussing to do that, but don't know where any setting like that is.
Copied my kernel32.bak as you suggested to the system folder and off-line just to make sure, thanks for the tip!
Can't see your message now but you mentioned some setting that I don't have access to; don't know where all these settings menus are. I don't have direct access to the EX install at all except through the folder it installed itself in.

"And occasionally a genuine old 98-program may start chocking with KEx, but that can be fixed with the new compatibility tab."

There it is. Where/what is this 'compatibility tab' with EX? I don't have access to the program or any menus or settings at all. I had forgotten that Opera does still work on ME so I won't fiddle with that now (too much RAM). What was the work-around from the developer for the missing .bak file in short out of curiousity (no need to go into technical detail as I shouldn't need it)? Again, thanks for the help and the tips!! I'll check out those forum links definitely. Didn't know there were upgrades available for WinME

In other news, I'm a little hesitant to try the new K-Meleon 1.6 because of all the reports everyone's been making, and it's dependency on KEX. Of course, I'm using Firefox with it without problems... And K-Meleon 1.5.4 works so flawlessly, as it's new for me I don't want to ruin the experience

Don't worry about the newest KM-version of desga, "1.6cp4": That is a portable version, in the sense that it doesn't need any "installing", and it is independant from other versions, since the new user profile will be created inside the new KM root folder Just unzip his version and that's all. You can still manually copy over the files from your KM1.5.4 profile into your new profile folder in KM1.6cp4 folder (Edit > Configuration > Profile Directory). This portable cp4 version is definitely not going to mess anything else on your system, you can simply try it just for fun It does have some flaws yet, but that's mainly alpha or beta version bugs, most happen on "real" new systems as well.

Looks like you haven't figured out yet how the KernelEx options work, but that solves all your questions from above Just open your file explorer and right-click on the .exe or .dll file or a setup.exe you want to tune (e.g. on "k-meleon.exe"), click "properties", and you'll find a new tab for "compatibility" - there you can tell to program to run in XP or win2000 or win98se etc. mode Often needs some testing which setting works and what not. If I read that right over at their forum, KEx contains already some standard settings for programs like firefox and flash, that's why that runs automatically for you, and that's why you couldn't yet install Seamonkey etc: You didn't right click the seamonkey-setup.exe (or whatever name that file has) and haven't set it to another windows version, that's why they complain about your old windows! Just change their compatiblity tab and they'll think they're running on XP etc. :cool:



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/2010 05:45PM by siria.

Good thing xthost is still working today, tried first with my holaservers account but doesn't seem to work :-(

Can you say why are you using so outdated OSes? The computer for an at least WinXP costs a dime today.
Backward compatibility for an 10-15 years old OSes requires lots of resources and costs a time. Especially considering the slow-pace K-Meleon development.

Don't worry, the KM developers do NOT waste their resources on those old systems anymore. Officially KM1.6 will only run on modern systems.
Of course that doesn't mean that win98/Me users couldn't also run it, with the help of some tricks of course :cool:

Personally I love my win98 because it mostly does what *I* want it to, immediately and without refusing. It's like a good dog. In Win98, the owner of the box is the one in control.

Have also a meanwhile 2 years old Vista laptop which drove me crazy for months, because it only does what *it* wants (or Mr. Gates), and constantly slapped me on the fingers even for the easiest tasks I asked it too. NYET! How dare you giving such a command... Like a very bad dog, standing there and refusing its owner to get into his own house! Searching the web endlessly for answers revealed that you must first spend hundreds of hours studying it before you can do anything else but the most basic mainstream stuff. Vista was designed to make a computer more foolproof, which in turn also means it treats every user like a fool. Man was that a galore to just figure out how to see the files and folders on my hard disk like in file explorer!!

In short, the master of my computer in Win98 is myself, the owner, while in Vista the owner doesn't have much to say. Big boss is the box itself and Microsoft, only they decide which few tasks they gracefully allow the owner to do and which not. Unfortunately the opinions of Big Boss Box and myself differ a bit too often, and I don't feel like studying for any more months just to persuade MY computer to stop strangling me :cool:

And in my admittedly very biased opinion on that issue modern systems are way more dangerous to connect to the web :cool: Despite all pretended foolproofness they still have so many dangerous doors open in the default configuration, e.g. if you simply have javascript enabled in the browser, that you constantly need to have the most up-to-date versions of security softwares running alongside the browser, slowing down the machine, and still all the time new malware shows up and slips past all those oh-so-secure programs. My impression from that vista notebook is that it's very good at protecting itself from its owner, not from malware - so no thanks!!



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 10/03/2010 07:21PM by siria.

You forget about XP — its not so ancient as 98 and not so modern as Vista/7, so it can meet your needs.
Your words «it mostly does what *I* want it to» look like self-persuasion, because XP and Seven do what the user wants too.
Vista was a fail and it's in the past, the optimal choice now is XP or 7.

//off-topic for K-Meleon users unless they're trying it with KernelEx, a program that allows old computers to attempt to use new software; works occassionally//

I figured I'd find your answer here when I checked. I *just* discovered the new compatibility tab on programs by accident myself lol. Neat. However, it still didn't allow me to install Chrome or Safari. I tried two different settings. It just leaves a log in TEMP folder that says .msi (Windows Installer) has to be updated. So I tried dl and installing two Windows Installer programs hoping KernelEx would allow me to install them but no dice. So at least we got to one of the roots of the problems of the newer programs: .msi install. I remember using msi before, maybe there's a ME compatible that would allow the process. Anyways, I *was* allowed to install SeaMonkey Browser with the compatibility tab settings, which wouldn't install before just with KernelEx default. It installed fine, I got a pop-up when opening the browser after install which I couldn't read because every thing I put the cursor over in the pop-up and the browser after closing pop-up, turns BLACK. So, no fault of KernelEx. It did it's job in letting it install, which is neat. Just wasn't software made to work with old system specs I guess. I'm sure there's a workaround but it'd be way too techy for me. So, we're back to where we were again: works great for new Firefox and its new Flash plug-in. Which makes it worthwhile anyways. I'll try some non-browser programs in the future.

In answer to Win7, ditto to siria's response; I couldn't agree more with everything you said! The only (software-based) firewall I trust dosn't even install on my roommate's Vista. Also, starting with XP, you don't even see filesizes, total foldersize, empty space, and number of files in Windows Explorer by default. That is the very first thing that drives me crazy in newer OSes and is almost a deal-breaker for me. Worthless file explorer. 98(SE) is actually so user-customizable you can really get into trouble! Most versatile system I've ever dealt with. I remember missing a .dll once and it dialed out, went online, and found and downloaded and installed it for me successfully. You can *really* customize it, especially once you get into alternative GUI and shell programs. So again, thoroughly agree with siria. It's actually too dangerous for me, so I use the safety net of Windows ME with it's 'don't touch' policy of basic system files that automatically replace themselves if deleted or altered. I don't like opening Explorer and not seeing at a glance the statistics for the folder and files within, and disk space, etc. I really hate Vista. As far as Win7's reference to XP, granted, except that XP will be obselete, that is, not working with new software, just like earlier OSes before too long, so it's a moot point. The microsoft page already announced it will no longer be supported. What does that tell you about that company making the most popular system ever? Having a stable, user-friendly OS that you won't need to update dosn't seem to be their goal. Planned obsolescence is the norm. 98 was versatile enough to handle anything, even major updating to its own OS. Why XP, the number one preferred OS, just left behind and not updated? Because they made a system most people liked so much they didn't want to change; and Microsoft needs to sell new software. That's why. Sorry for the rant, it's just a sore subject to many. New versatility should require less to support it, not more. See tinyapps.org and read about machine language-software. The fact that youtube, latest Firefox, etc. works perfectly well on my tweaked old box is proof that the bloated systems and ridicuously high RAM requirements of modern tech is just to sell more. That is, it's not fundamentals that are prohibitive. They *make* it non-compatible. Why not low-res media stream options for lower RAM? Built-in GUI options for systems with less resources? That would be technical progress. In my opinion, *every* item (software or hardware) could be/should be fully backwards compatible and play well with others. It's quite possible.

Siria, I can't install the newer K because my system dosn't seem to do 7-zip files. Not sure it even installs the 7-zip program correctly. The one zip file available just unzipped a 7z file I couldn't use again. Maybe I need a different 7z utility. Else I'll have to wait for a stable (.exe) release. Thanks again for all your help. I'll repost the Ex paragraph update in that project's forum.

My oh my... am in a hurry so just quick: You either forgot to set compatibility not only for the setup.exe but also for seamonkey.exe (after install), or they too need the vcredist installed separately (or just the ddls copied?)

7zip really works fine, noprobs at all, please check again if you installed the right version with the right settings... Or perhaps needs a reboot, no idea....

As far as I know msi files do not work with old systems anyway, but mostly there are also zip, exe or portable versions offered... You can also try to EXTRACT a msi with 7z, since some contain the "normal" program and may not really need any "installation".... Unless perhaps your security settings get inthe way, again no idea;-)

Quote
siria
My oh my... am in a hurry so just quick: You either forgot to set compatibility not only for the setup.exe but also for seamonkey.exe (after install), or they too need the vcredist installed separately (or just the ddls copied?)

....

As far as I know msi files do not work with old systems anyway, but mostly there are also zip, exe or portable versions offered... You can also try to EXTRACT a msi with 7z, since some contain the "normal" program and may not really need any "installation".... Unless perhaps your security settings get inthe way, again no idea;-)

No, SeaMonkey is compiled with custom 80.dlls (Mozilla Custom C Runtime) & no vcredist for that. The custom runtime ships with SM.zip or installer.

4 K-Meleon the GRE can be compiled the same way. No idea how Dorian compiled. But from what I found: the used GRE (xpcom.dll) is depending on mozcrt19.dll (like SeaMonkey's).

Filealyzer says the K-Meleon.exe is depending on msvcr80.dll ( means You need it for the exe).

But the exe can probably be compiled like the exe Hao ships. That is only depending on one Mozilla file (maybe get the exe from CCF?).

The MSI instalers do a version check. NO go.
Other installers for the VC80.dll('s) are offered by various parties.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2010 09:29PM by guenter.

Wait... *shock* Just stumbled accidentally about this:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=CEBBACD8-C094-4255-B702-DE3BB768148F&pf=true
Sounds like an msi-installer for Win9X, an update by Microsoft themselves in 2001??
Okay, I'll keep this in favorites but not use yet unless really needed some day :cool:

Quote
WinME
The one zip file available just unzipped a 7z file I couldn't use again.

Just realized why: Actually the download from the 100mb site has a "7z"-file that is packed inside a ".zip" file! So you did it right, just proceed now unzipping also the 7z ;-)
But you need to have the 7zip program installed. Most KMeleon macros are also packed as 7z-files. 7zip is really quite handy, it can pack and unpack lots of different compression formats, incl. of course the normal .zip-files, has lots of options, and additionally it manages often to unzip programs that are only distributed as "exe" files, but in reality are often just self-extracting zip-files. So I can use those without being forced to blindly "install" an exe file, what I hate :cool: Even msi-files can somethings be "extracted", sometimes containing just normal files and folders, or other times just to extract some single file from inside.

If you get such "black stuff", that sounds like either missing those infamous msvc...dll's (open the "vcredist" link in the middle of this page: http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net/wiki/kmeleon16), or like just having forgotten to set compatibility for the program exe itself, not just the installer...

But I'd try with KM16cp4 first, since it needs no "installation" (great for just testing), and it also contains those two msvc...dll's already. Just not sure whether that "vcredist" still needs to be installed or not, but you'll see it ;-)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/04/2010 10:44PM by siria.

WinME, I couldn't post my answer here because of stupid «banned word» error, so if you want, you can read it here http://pastebin.com/zGXuNdK0

LOL! By interpolating I found that the banned word is 'shoes'! But really, compared to our old 'ugg' problem (now fixed), shoes are really a much lesser desaster :cool:

Interesting that pastebin site, may have a closer look when I get around

But this long discussion really gets offtopic now, has nothing to do with KM anymore. Perhaps we could create a new thread and copy our system-only posts in there...?

siria, yes, it will be good thing.

Yes, fine with me. Now I see what you are saying about compatibilizing the actual exe file after install, not just the install file. I had no idea one was supposed to do that! And yes, that 80 dll I think is the error message I keep getting on a lot of stuff I try.

Quote
siria
Wait... *shock* Just stumbled accidentally about this:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/en/details.aspx?FamilyID=CEBBACD8-C094-4255-B702-DE3BB768148F&pf=true
Sounds like an msi-installer for Win9X, an update by Microsoft themselves in 2001??
Okay, I'll keep this in favorites but not use yet unless really needed some day :cool:

BUT the actual MSI 2.0 installer download itself is version 2.0.2600.2 which was released late January 2002. My relative has a dual-boot Win2k/Win98se computer and I installed this on a separate hard drive containing win98se.

If you dont have this installed, you're win98se system is incomplete (and perhaps living in the past). MANY but not all apps today use MSI based installers. If you have installed the unofficial win98se service pack, it installs the MSI 2.0 Installer anyway.

Get with the current times in the 21st century and install MSI 2.0 ASAP, siria.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 03:27PM by 4td8s.

LOL! That would be a lost case anyway, pretending to be arrived in the 21st century with a win98se box

I may install msi some day, when really needed. But so far haven't come across a software yet that I absolutely wanted but was *only* available as msi, not as exe, unzippable exe, nor as real zip or portable version, and without a similar software as alternative. Sorry but I hate installers, they are spreading their files and registry stuff all over the place, and not all of it is undone and removed when uninstalling again! Find it much easier to have all files of a program together in their own folder (and appdata perhaps), so that all is gone if I simply delete that folder again. Of course I still rarely "install" a setup.exe, if forced, but simple and leightweight portable proggies are cuter anyway And why, most programs don't need at all a blind "installation", Win98 has no complicated rights-probs like XP+, and I'm perfectly able to create a shortcut icon and autostart entry with a bit drag-n-drop myself, so why

do you use Sun Java software with K-meleon under win98se, siria? its setup program installs MSI before installing sun java.

not installing MSI will be the dumbest and most stupid mistake you'll ever make.
I certainly have several apps that use MSI on old dual-boot Win98se and WinME computers. And I can easily do "repair" installations of these apps with MSI if they have missing/corrupted files or registry entries. so I have a different experience with MSI installers than what you deal with and it's pretty good.

Quote
WinME
In other news, I'm a little hesitant to try the new K-Meleon 1.6 because of all the reports everyone's been making, and it's dependency on KEX. Of course, I'm using Firefox with it without problems... And K-Meleon 1.5.4 works so flawlessly, as it's new for me I don't want to ruin the experience

better to wait for the RC or final version of KM 1.6, WinME. if the current alphas and prebetas of KM 1.6 scare you, then it's better to stick with KM 1.5.4.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/06/2010 11:05PM by 4td8s.

Quote
siria
I may install msi some day, when really needed. But so far haven't come across a software yet that I absolutely wanted but was *only* available as msi, not as exe, unzippable exe, nor as real zip or portable version, and without a similar software as alternative. Sorry but I hate installers, they are spreading their files and registry stuff all over the place, and not all of it is undone and removed when uninstalling again! Find it much easier to have all files of a program together in their own folder (and appdata perhaps), so that all is gone if I simply delete that folder again. Of course I still rarely "install" a setup.exe, if forced, but simple and leightweight portable proggies are cuter anyway And why, most programs don't need at all a blind "installation", Win98 has no complicated rights-probs like XP+, and I'm perfectly able to create a shortcut icon and autostart entry with a bit drag-n-drop myself, so why

bulls--t, siria. The MSI 2.0 installer for Win9x doesn't take up a lot of space.
I know for sure Sun Java 5.0 Update 22, the last version of Java to support Win98/ME, uses Windows Installer whether you like it or not. I visit some web sites in K-meleon that uses sun java software. I also have a Microsoft Optical WheelMouse device that installs Microsoft Intellipoint software through MSI.

heck, even the Netgear Wireless WG311v3 Network card uses MSI to install its drivers and software on my dual-boot WinME/WinXP machine.

so more and more software vendors are resorting to using Windows Installer to install their software. You are just not fully aware of it. In short, I'd rather be prepared and having MSI installed in advance. As I said before, the Windows Installer files don't use up much space on the hard drive.

http://code.google.com/p/lessmsi/

http://legroom.net/software/uniextract

Quote
40d8s
I'd rather be prepared and having MSI installed in advance.

Now, this is what I, in turn, would call "bulls--t".
Prepared for?
The day when her internet connection is down and she has a
bit spare time to install Sun Java 5.0 Update 22?

Some more software you'd suggest installing just for
being prepared for other eventualities?

Cheers
SoerenB


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