hi, I am new here, and was about to reply to this thread...

http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?1,94147,94147#msg-94147

...when I realized my answer would clutter that specific-subject troubleshooting thread....so I look around and find this sub-forum.

And I just read the very funny "why I left Firefox" topic too. <g>

Oh yes, hubris is the word. Also, "misplaced arrogance", "SELF-styled experts", "Denial", "Spiteful and Vicious to their own users", all come to mind as other very apt terms... <g>

Oh the irony....FF becomes MS! .LOL

...complete with long-unfixed major bugs, total denial, abuse of customers, all the trimmings....so full circle we've come.

Now MANY look for alternative...and as I am one of those, one of the little-people so detested by FF 'community'...here I am at KM site...after using FF since the days it was phoenix.

Anyway...here is post I was about to make in that Sessions thread...for what it's worth to KM team...

hello,

I just landed on this page via forum-search for 'session'.

I am just starting to check into Kmeleon from being sick to death of FF's mem-issues and bw-wasting bugs (can only get dialup here), and the huge arrogance and nastiness of ff 'community' towards anyone asking for help with those issues.

So, FF is the new IE...lol...and many are newly interested in alternatives again....like KM.

While this KM website is VERY clean and fast-loading (good work!), the main pages seem to lack any search function; and say almost nothing about Extensions (which is the prime reason for many who seek alternative to IE in the first place).

Unlike some, I use less than a dozen extensions in FF3, but they're important to me; and the most important is Session Manager.

So the first thing I looked for here was 'session', and got to this thread.

Anyway, I've never used or even seen KM in my life, but looking at that little window in above post, I am already worried about trying it...lol.

That type of window is a poor way to handle a sessions-list. The 'open list' format that Session Manager uses in FF is much better than having to activate a pulldown every time.

Such a dialog window is only ever open briefly, so who cares how tall it is? The right place to focus on saving vertical screen-space is in -main- window of an app....which is on screen all the time.

Also, that style of little window is rarely sizeable, and never has enough field-width to display full text of lines.

Even worse, those little windows almost never allow setting of font-size, and do not handle well any enlargement of font-size in the underlying OS.

For those of us with visual-impairment, or are laptop-user with its high DPI coupled with small physical size (or both...lol), it is -critical- to be able to change/optimize the font-sizes in apps.

To be a good modern application, an app MUST provide a way to set font-size (without causing cut-off of right-end of lines), in ALL windows, not just main window.

Maybe I'm reading too much into the display of that little window here...maybe KM actually does allow it to have fonts changed...and if so, my apologies, truly, for speaking in ignorance....and congrats on having sizeable, font-adjustable dialog popups.

But that window in post does look -exactly- like the usual kind of little dialog-window that so many apps use which does NOT allow those important sizing and font adjustments. So I offer the above observations in case this is so.

Also, it's a little off-topic of Sessions or GUI, but I reiterate briefly about Extensions...

To attract many new users/supporters (like me potentially), KM must accept FF extensions, period, I think. The FF fanatics won't admit it, but half of the millions switching to FF were actually switching to Ad-block or Session-Manager or... And they viewed FF only as the platform which must be run to support those highly-desirable functions.

So when I first came to KM page a few minutes ago, the first thing I looked for was 'Extensions'; but I had to hunt through 3 pages before I even found the word 'extension'.

I suggest: Maybe more focus should be on making KM take any FF extension without hassle....and at the least, the homepage and FAQ pages should address Extensions (and any plans for same) much more prominently. Address it directly, right away on the site.

If KM-team choice is to not support all FF extensions, ok, no problem....but at least save abused dialup-users <g> a little bandwidth on wasted page-loads, via prominent mention of choice right on homepage.

Also, if KM has fixed/eliminated all the bandwidth-wasting in FF, then make prominent note of it; because a billion people are still stuck without broadband and are actively looking for alternative browser with version -optimized for dialup- !

Recall that all FF dev'ing and 3rd-party tweaks are -only- for gigabit fiber. <g>

Good selling point for fresh alternative KM browser!

Especially if notorious FF mem-hogging is absent in KM also.

If so, make a big notice of that KM advantage on homepage!

hope observations help KM team a little...

KM cannot directly import FF extensions. They often have language not used in KM. Not having that extra language is part of the reason KM requires less resources.

That also may be why many text boxes and menues use only one font and size. It would be nice to have a larger font sometimes, but I will take the trade off to use less resources.

Sessions, from the main menu, works very well. We also have groups which is a macro file which can be added to KM. Find that here http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net/wiki/KmmGroups2

We now have extensions done by users and hosted elsewhere. This is the link. http://kmext.sourceforge.net/

Hope this helps you. I am just a user and not an expert on extensions.

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JamesD
KM cannot directly import FF extensions. They often have language not used in KM. Not having that extra language is part of the reason KM requires less resources.

That also may be why many text boxes and menues use only one font and size. It would be nice to have a larger font sometimes, but I will take the trade off to use less resources.

Sessions, from the main menu, works very well. We also have groups which is a macro file which can be added to KM. Find that here http://kmeleon.sourceforge.net/wiki/KmmGroups2

We now have extensions done by users and hosted elsewhere. This is the link. http://kmext.sourceforge.net/

Hope this helps you. I am just a user and not an expert on extensions.

hello jamesd, and thank you for taking the time to offer thoughts.

It is easy to say "I'll take the tradeoff" when you can see the little letters ok....but when it is -impossible- to read the menu, it is not so easy to say that! <g>

I tell you that a high-dpi screen that is physically small, like a 1600x1200 laptop 15", makes VERY tiny letters on those dialog windows that were coded without thinking that user might not be running a 22" monitor like coder is!

I.e., coder writes little dialog-window with letters that are already small even on 22"....and by the time user runs on 15", but with same resolution as 22", tiny letters are now microscopic!...lol...

So no, I cannot make 'tradeoff' that you make; because to read menu is not just hard, but -impossible-. Any person with hi-res laptop, and -especially- also with even a slight visual impairment, simply cannot use such programs which forgot to include adjustments for all the many screen-types and user-eyes in the world.

Truth to be recognized is that most coders (90%?) are younger, have excellent eyes, work on huge monitor, live urban so have super-fast bandwidth; which is fine...but sometimes forget to remember <g> that many people not have all that. Perhaps a gentle reminder to help keep wider reality of world in front of mind is ok I hope.


ps; I don't think that dinky dialog-window issue is related to "not same language as FF". This type of little window is very common....been around a long time. I think it's 'system' window....coder makes call to windows to make it for him.

Or possibly from common language library. Anyway, is old function and common because easy to call. But doesn't work well. Always too narrow to display full lines of text.....never resizable....never have font-control like main-window usually does in modern app. On old low-res big-screen monitors it was ok, but today? No. On small hi-res monitor it's not ok any more.

The fix is straight, regardless of 'language' of app: generate own -nice- window with needed attributes; rather than easier use of old-style call to obsolete and limited OS/library type crude dialog-box. More work yes, but oh what a more elegant and beautiful code!

I'm not programmer; but have read much and deep on this issue to learn fixes and such...because of my own need. <g>

.

Extensions; that is truly too bad; because KM cannot get alot of new users without good extensions...while few independent devs will write extensions for KM alone unless it has lots of users!...chicken and egg, yes? <g>

Tough quandry I think.

Do you say that ability to take extensions is main cause of FF being hog? That doesn't sound quite right to me.

POV: FF hog-discussion often get framed in wrong terms. Problem for most really isn't that FF "uses too much memory"....but actually is that FF >not release< memory when tab/window closed!

And also of course that FF eats more and more memory even when left alone doing nothing. Come back in morning and 100mb now 400mb....huh?? <g>

Even if FF memory was disgusting 200mb to show 10 easy text pages, that would be ok, if it just -stayed- at 200mb...and gave up memory every time tab closed. Really.

Slim is very good, but not necessary for KM to use NO resources!...lol.

And ability to no-hassle take FF extensions will be VERY powerful draw to KM. Also, extensions themselves are very powerful...many very very useful functions are there, not just toys.

And this usefulness in the extensions isn't the same as 'bloating' the browser with other functions like email etc...like KM is avoiding. It's a whole different thing.

Obviously KM-team knows extensions are valuable and important; as witness new Extensions page; and right away inclusion of very important AdBlock.

So the only question is whether to do half-job so just a few can be used, and only with difficulty, and it's always a problem every time new extension is demanded...or to do full job the first time around, so that all can be used, simply.

We must now think of browser as 'platform'. KM retains lean basic app, and modular nature, very good....while allowing each user to select own 'important functions' to make optimum browser for -him-.

But concept of -leveraging- on all the dev-work being done for nasty stumbling giant is -equally- powerful concept, I think. Not to be dismissed lightly.

I think it's maybe a mistake not to 'bite bullet' and commit to making a way, either internal or external, for KM-user to grab -any- ff-extension and use it, even if this makes KM take 10mb ram instead of 8mb (just conversation numbers). As you said yourself about other things, 'tradeoff well worth it". <g>

But of course, if it -truly- would make KM eat 300mb instead of 10mb, and not release ram when tabs closed, then yes, useless to do it. Just suffer FF, and hope that the back-from-dead Netscape founder comes up with a winner again. <g>

But my hunch is that extensions not really whole cause of FF hogging....not truly. Some more resources yes; but not 1000% hog increase just from ability to take NoSquint.

Anyway, thank you for link to page about extensions. I did already look at that page; but found little good info there for users. I did notice very brief mention of 'translation' I think?...of xpi to KM-code in some way.

But no good full description of -scope or limits- of this....of whether this does, or soon will, allow ANY ff extension to run; or only half of them, or only 2%...?

Truly, I do not care if extension needs some 'translation' rather than just 'click' it to install like in FF. Only has to be done once anyway, yes? The ONLY question is: "will I or will I not be able to use any ff extension I find on web?"

A 'yes' to that question is huge huge draw for KM !

ps; also didn't find much description of what -plans- are for this. Maybe I missed a link? Roadmap....intentions...expected schedule. I think from user POV, that's most interesting, and important.

thank you again for helping me



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2009 03:32AM by grubstake.

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grubstake
The ONLY question is: "will I or will I not be able to use any ff extension I find on web?"

No

Quote
grubstake
ps; also didn't find much description of what -plans- are for this. Maybe I missed a link? Roadmap....intentions...expected schedule. I think from user POV, that's most interesting, and important.

There is no official plan for extension for K-Meleon.

I have made, a system which will be online in a few time (the version in my link is a little out of date), but you'll never be able to install directly FF extensions.

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Mozilla/5.0 (x11; U; Linux x86_64; fr-FR; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Ubuntu/12.04 K-Meleon/76.0

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Web: http://jujuland.pagesperso-orange.fr/
Mail : alain [dot] aupeix [at] wanadoo [dot] fr

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Ubuntu 12.04 - Gramps 3.4.9 - Harbour 3.2.0 - Hwgui 2.20-3 - K-Meleon 76.0 rc

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2009 06:53AM by JujuLand.

While FF-extensions themselves, may usually not be what makes FF slow, the platform on which those extensions are built is a MAJOR reason, why FF is slow. It is not the only one, but if one would list the top 3 causes, that platform would be among it.

Its quite simple: The entire UI of firefox is written in a certain language which is slow to process and render, and big in terms of filesize. Because the extensions use the same language, they can modify those aspects of the FF UI. Since the K-Meleon GUI in most aspects is NOT written in that language, many FF-extensions cannot interact with it.

The only way to change that would be to write the KM GUI mostly in that language - and what you would end up with, is basically FF 1.0 with a newer renderer. And thats why there are no plans to do that.

FWIW, KM's extension are built using a scripting macro language that uses Windows APIs, FF's extension are built using XUL (XPI's) which is a software emulation language (read overhead). It is slower, kind of like running a windows app in Linux using Wine (not the best of analogies, but the best I can come up with at the moment).

Using macros has allowed KM to run smaller and faster and to my mind it is a big, big plus for those of us who like to do our own tinkering to do things (instead of waiting for developers to produce XPI addons to do things). Since KM does not use XUL, only some of the FF addons can be modified to work with it and that, as they say, is that.

FYI.

N

Just wanted to say that I enjoyed reading through the candid (if somewhat longish) appraisal of the lesser computer user hardships made by grubstake -- there's much wisdom to be reaped from such narratives.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/19/2009 01:59PM by foobarly.