I agree that if my build (or most of its change) could become official it would be easier to progress. But I'm just waiting for Ulf.

Thoses thinking about a cross-platform kmeleon should look at http://wxmozilla.sourceforge.net/ which is the equivalent to mfcembed but for the wxWindows framework which is similar to MFC. It would be the easiest solution.

To give an example of a possible replacement of the actual
official K-Meleon0.9 based on 1.7.5 , I have uploaded to
Rapidshare a version K-Meleon0.9-original-updated-1.7.12.
As there have appeared new bugs in the last couple of days,
it is a advisable to wait for a new Mozilla Gecko 1.2.13, that
might be offered in the near future. A K-Meleon0.9-updated-1.7.13
would then have to be packed by someone into an installer
file, and offered for download at the official download page.

Fred

Download for the example version at :

http://rapidshare.de/files/6446190/K-Meleon0.9-original-updated-1.7.12.exe.html

Fred

" . . . I have uploaded to Rapidshare . . . ."

-- I love this phrase! My favourite words from Fred!
Thank you, as always, Fred. :-)

@Dorian,
It is very difficult to reach someone in France by mail during summer holiday.
and very difficult to reach someone by mail that goes to China.

normally You will get no or later answer ; - )


If i googled right? Ulf seems at a Swedish University as staff.
I found several mail addresses in a config file via google.
But I do not know whether he is in reach right now.
It is just after start of semester in most countries in Europe.

Do You remember Ulf´s mail from last Year.
"I had never heard of any "unofficial developers" before.. I'm sure they
had received all needed privileges to run the web-site and CVS promptly, "...
(which they had not even dared to ask for..)

If You need anything Andrew must be able to help You to get access to all You need including cvs and so on. I assume this - because the mail was directed to
Andrew.
greetings & a bientot

@Fred - thx - i did not get around to do anything yet. kko´s chrome might be newer then mine (but i am not sure / probably 1.7.12 / i could hack a gif and a moving fox like credit for his version? if that is what is wanted //wenn erwünscht).

I have downloaded but not tested Your "original 1.7.12" yet - but i trust it includes support for google maps...
and all that has become state of the art xpt wise.

I personally favor the inclusion of a new goody or two: how is feeling about jsnj´s translation macro and Monkee-Sage´s mimetype editor? Both are tested and in the last French issue.

I read Juha-Matti s post with interest - and assume You are right about a 1.7.13 soon. On the other hand a 1.7.12 with a few goodies would be advertizing and it is not sufficiant to have a good product nowadays - You must tell people - and a service release with a few extras might be a good reason to...

I personally like sfx archives better than official installer - but...
greetings & bis bald

I have sent the URL for this thread to the usual K-Meleon Devs Sourceforge address. That is generally a first step to draw the attention of others, who don't usually read this forum. (Those who subscribe should see my note later today.)

To prove the stability of Dorians new build,
I have uploaded to Rapidshare a new version
K-Meleon0.9-original-updated-1.8b4 .
Based on Mozilla 1.8b4 nightly sept/10th/2005
Keeps the original look and settings of the official K-Meleon0.9.
Sidebars and most macros disabled, but can be enabled in menus.cfg.
Genuine tabs. Ads blocked by usercontent.css and hostperm1.
Groups are not yet supported.

http://rapidshare.de/files/6453846/K-Meleon0.9-original-updated-1.8b4.exe.html

Fred

@jsnj: Thanks for your reply! It was deeply and sincerely appreciated! And yes, it would be awesome to see you as a dev of the macros/js. Of course you were one that I had in mind when I wrote that.

I wonder if people haven't asked jsnj, for eq, people like our fine Dorian who has done so much hard work on the KM based upon the SM build, mainly because there seems to be nobody around to ask, where it seems nigh impossible to get in touch with Ulf, and as you said, Andrew is sadly gone? But here I read that Dorian has apparently attempted to get in touch with Ulf for this very purpose and has waited, and waited, and waited... and no reply has been forthcoming. -sigh- Kind of stymmies whatever official work anyone tries to do, doesn't it?

I mean, yes---email can and does get lost, assuredly! And I don't look down upon Ulf's contributions to KM in the least because KM wouldn't be what it is today had it not have been for Ulf! In fact, this project would've died a quick death ages ago and none of us would be here discussing this now if not for Ulf. However, at the same time, it does seem like the request to pass on the mantel to someone else just as qualified is going unheeded, almost an action which says, "This is MY baby and I refuse to share him or give him up."

Well, or so it seems to me. Yet I'm not too good at reading what others are doing. Heck, I never know what I'm doing!

@Carson: Thanks so much for your recognition in the thanks that you wrote in italics, however, I never did anything for the official KM, other than a couple of 2-bit themes. I'm not trying to be modest---that's just the way it is. My work, little as it was, was on that first "break-off browser project".

@Guenter: If I could voice a vote on anything being added? I would agree with you on the translation macro by jsnj and the mimeTypes editor---both are very helpful and I believe "must haves" in a browser. They also don't add that much weight to the over-all browser (no more than a GRE update will add a little more weight). That's just my €.02½

Thanks for everyone's time.

Amicalement,

Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"

I really don't think Ulf is holding on to K-Meleon. Far from it. I imagine he is just wondering whether it might be a bit of a Black Hole for his energies. Rest assured. We'll hear from Ulf, and all will be right with the world and with K-Meleon.

My guess is that Ulf is not the kind of person to do anything without looking closely at what he is doing. If you recall, he chose 1.7.5 over other GRE renditions because 1.7.5 was considered the most reliably stable.

So I would think he will set aside some time to take a good look at things before he chooses to pass the controls anywhere--IF he chooses to. Personally, I shall miss Ulf, if he walks away--and yet I have never communicated with him directly.

(But, no, Eyes-Only, K-Meleon would have existed anyway. There was a fellow called Michael Spigot who was going to run it in a divergent universe. The lizard would have been darker blue, but everything else was the same. When Ulf took K-Meleon upon himself, he caused Michael never to be born, three species of dinosaur to disappear from the rocks, and a cat belonging to Martha Havensworth in Dallas to get a bad case of hiccups. And for the lizard to go with green.)

I can't help but notice the time of year. K-Meleon had its Christmas edition in 2003, and its New Years edition in 2005, almost exactly a year later.

I would have to say that until I read that last post by Carson, I was feeling rather uneasy about the future development of K-Meleon. I just hope that Carson is right.

Brian

None here can say how much time and work he can put into the project in future.

Among these that wanted to do somthing recently were two people that can code c and not many more that can create macros effectively.
Last year all went with a bad schedule.

As far as i remember - Ulf found some time when Dorian and some that had tried to get a new browser going together with him had just used up all their time or had gone more sick than usual (or whatever).

Eyes-Only has IMHO has tried a "little" more than to give a theme...
I have reason to know.

jsnj who is IMHO the father of most of our current menus and macros
(&thx to Monkee-Sage for he extended the capabilities of the macros system)
seems to have much the same problem as all had last year.

And all here seem have the same problem: time.

We all do not know how much time we can or want to invest in future.

It is sure good if many talented people find time but we cannot ask any one to have time. For most of us time to follow such persuits as doing little or much
(depending on individual capability & available time) work on the browser comes up
on individual intervals.

& Let us face it - it is probably the same with Ulf.

What we can do and have done effectively during the past year
- share little pieces of work (chores) between as many people as posssible.
That way Forum was able to preserve status quo ante without (m)any
people trained or gifted in software development.

I'm glad I finally hit the nerve posting that tread. I don't like Ulf and I tried to start discussion many times, but this time critical mass probably reached the point or timing is right.
I dont like him not because he is an arrogant prick, but because of his programming and the direction he steered km to. Original devs refused to do layers and the rest of the bloat, so Ulf was left alone. Instead of cleaning gecko, he wasted his time on bells and whistles that people requested. Gecko is multiplatform engine, and since km is windoze based, 2/3 of gecko code could be cleaned, with immense speed improvement potential. Instead Ulf choose stupid layers as a priority. After that more bugs appeared, bmp and rebar plugins not working on win95 and 98. So Ulf decided to drop support for win95 and 98, calling them inferior, archaic and so on. Yea, good call Ulfy boy. I dont know how jsnj convince him to reconsider, but because of 95/98 problems he released 0.9 on 1.7.5 base.
Theres more to the story, read mailing list. I think its time to say "thank you and good by" and move on. We have enough people to support km for a long time.
Of course it is my opinion, and as you know, my opinion is different that most of you on many issue.
Personally, I was using km 0.7 until recently. As more security holes appeared, and since 0.7 cannot be upgraded, I have to switch to some Freds minimal build. Of course no layers, no plugins of any kind and no crashes.
Witch way you guys decide to go, is up to you. But for a small group of people who like lean, mean fighting machine, theres always km C (C stand for C:drive). Just update to the latest gecko, put in joined xpt, and here you go.

The tone & spirit of that last post is ugly. I won't get into a tit for tat battle with the poster on the merits or validity of his comments. I did that once with a poster in the past and won't do that again. But thankfully his tone isn't indicative of the attitude that's usually represented in these forums. I for one am grateful to all who have contributed or tried to contribute something to the project even if I may not personally agree or like particular directional tangents. It's all good :-) Something usually can be learned from it all.

If I have time, I'll try and help organize a new official version by the end of the year or sooner if no one else wants to. At the very least, an official update to the latest secure backend. M1.7.5 aint all that bad though. I don't think anyone has really been bitten by any of the security holes in it. Funny thing is, you know once a new KM is released, Mozilla or Seamonkey, whichever gecko KM is running on, will probably have a new update the following week. Then more calls for a new KM will begin. :-)

THis is a great project and an excellent browser it would be a shame to see it go. But if there is such an issue with devs then why don't the current devs making "unoficial" builds just fork the project. The general feeling is that current project devs are unable to work on it for whatever reason. This is an excellent low footprint browser. In addition it can work well with other projects going on right now like the reactos project They are working on a windows clone that can use windows software and drivers. They are going for low footprint as well.

I hope this project continues. People need an alternative browser that runs well and is not bloated like IE or mozilla/FF is starting to get.

I will keep downloading those unofficial builds till a new official comes out.

Rob:

I do like the layers, I thinks that they're a fundamental part of K-Meleon. If you don't like it you don't have to use it, but let the others enjoy it.

Also, about Ulf, I don't know him. The only I know and care is that he is (or were) working hardly to develop this browser, and that he did a good job. This reminds me the Clinton / Lewinsky affair. As with Clinton, I don't care about his personal life, attitude, or if he is less diplomat than an ogre.

This is a development forum, we are supposed to look forward to improve this browser, this is not a "Mister Nice Guy" contest.

I have been reading the posts on this popular topic with interest. The good aspect is that the emotions expressed (positive and negative) show that people really do care about what happens to this undoubtedly effective and increasingly popular browser. People have come to rely upon it as a trusted friend in their daily browsing. The bad aspect is that all these energies might become hopelessly fragmented and dissipated if the development project has insufficient structure and focus. The K-Meleon effort needs to be like a lens bringing the sun's rays together to ignite a fire, rather than scattering the light in all directions with pieces of broken plain glass!

The developers who have carried K-Meleon thus far clearly deserve our warmest thanks, but it is unhealthy and unsustainable if the development effort comes to rely on a single individual's whim. But we do not want a camel either - a horse designed by a committee! We need flexibility, but not chaos. We want to encourage sensible innovation, but not anarchy.

Perhaps we could start by revisiting what we are actually trying to achieve with the development of this browser - what are our goals?. It might be helpful to devise and "sign up" to some basic principles for the core K-Meleon browser, for example:

1) K-Meleon requires no more system resources or disk space than absolutely necessary
2) K-Meleon is made as easy to install and as portable as possible
3) K-Meleon is made as secure, stable and bug-free as possible
4) Bug fixes take priority over new features
5) New features are added only if there is a compelling reason for their presence in a modern browser
6) K-Meleon has sufficient flexibility to be easily customized and extended by those who want additional features
7) K-Meleon uses the Gecko rendering engine and can be easily upgraded with new versions
8) K-Meleon runs under the widest practicable range of Windows operating systems
(why on earth get distracted into Linux etc at this point, just when K-Meleon is becoming more widely recognized as an excellent Windows browser?)
9) Adequate user-friendly documentation is provided
etc.

These are just some ideas off the top of my head to get started, not an attempt to comprehensively define the ongoing project. What do others think?

Regards,
Douglas

Yes Douglas, you're right, I agree entirely.

The main problem, in my opinion, is that for any official release there are five millions of light unofficials, patches, custom versions, etc. But all are different versions of the same lizard. Someone should watch all those patches and modified versions and, in close job with the patches designers, choose the better and most useful ones to include in a new K-Meleon version (naturally GRE & chrome updated).

It looks like the people with the skills to does not have enough time to do, and the people with the time does not have the skills to even try.

I would be one of the few with time, but minimal to no skills. I would love to help in any way that I could. I love K-Meleon and I'd definitely be willing to help out in any way that I could.

Brian

I have no time...
I have no skills...
But my kids still love me...
I just remembered...I don't have kids.
Peace,
Stuart

Hey, Stuart, that's okay: everybody here loves you.

It comes with the browser.
:-)

basic principles for the core K-Meleon browser, for example:

1) K-Meleon requires no more system resources or disk space than absolutely necessary
2) K-Meleon is made as easy to install and as portable as possible
3) K-Meleon is made as secure, stable and bug-free as possible
4) Bug fixes take priority over new features
5) New features are added only if there is a compelling reason for their presence in a modern browser
6) K-Meleon has sufficient flexibility to be easily customized and extended by those who want additional features
7) K-Meleon uses the Gecko rendering engine and can be easily upgraded with new versions
8) K-Meleon runs under the widest practicable range of Windows operating systems
(why on earth get distracted into Linux etc at this point, just when K-Meleon is becoming more widely recognized as an excellent Windows browser?)
9) Adequate user-friendly documentation is provided

My position:

#1 Totally agree;
#2 Totally agree;
#3 Totally agree;
#4 Totally agree;
#5 Agree;
#6 Agree;
#7 Agree;
#8 Totally agree;
#9 Totally agree.

An idea for a repository structure\hierarchy:

Core version
\-» GRE updates
\-» Other component fixes/updates/customizations
\-» Other complete versions
\-» Skins/Addons
\-» Documentation (wiki/help/howto)
\-» Macro language (ref/tutorials/snippets)

Carson,
For just a moment I knew
what is was like to be Sally
Field...
The lizard has great power.
Peace,
Stuart

Yes, did you read her new book?

"Dancing with the Lizard"

;-) I'm sorry--I jest.