@rob
I have e-mailed him. I am sure he will be quick with it. We've no need to worry too much.

Brian

Brian.
Get the fricking key now!
Chris will be hit by the truck tomorrow or will be deported, and we will be in limbo again.
Dont read those posts, its all distraction.
I know you have issue, so be a man . Do it now.

Damn proxies.

Haha, indeed. Well,... Christophe has now added me as an admin. Check for yourself:
http://sourceforge.net/projects/kmeleon/

Thank you all. Thank you, Christophe for being so quick about it and also for helping out when we all know that you didn't have to.

Brian

Congratz.
Now lets make some km.

Now, I'm confused by your email.
Well, my sourceforge id is boisso, you can add me so I can finally commit some code into the cvs.
Though, I don't really like the way it was done.

Well I'm happy we are refreshing the dev list. I think that we still need about two more people on the dev list so I hope Dorian and the rest (don't want to forget someone :-) of skilled people are available.

About the national editions, I don't think that by having released a national editional one can be called to have admin rights (except in extreme lack of volunteers situations) because most of the time the national editions (as my spanish one) are not something which requieres special skills (I've made mine basically by listening to Alain's and Guenter's suggestions :-)

So I think that me and with me the less skilled people, specially now when happily we have an forum active new admin, should not become an admin unless those most skilled people (and there are not less than five people) become admins or all refuse it.

We don't need to have 200 admins without skilled habilities.

Dear all,

Let me start by saying that I see no incompatibility of the co-existence of the kmeleon and k-meleon projects at souceforge -- they can be viewed as a kind of suspender and belt situation. Remissions (linking) the two should won't be difficult and if ever one of them goes down... So, I congrat Brian again for timely action.

ndebord as usual sums up pretty well the situation that lead to the recent developments, and we must be grateful to him for doing well the job of writing the k-meleon chronicle. One thing he doesn't mention, maybe because it is an issue where we didn't reach consensus, is Carson's contribution and propositions... I'll come back to that.

On the course of this debate, rob was called to attention for displaying an aggressive stance, but I consider that in fact he was being pragmatic. Much unwanted outcomes resulted from our discussion on k-meleon governance, but the one I think we all wanted (which IMHO was a clear definition of who's accountable for what) didn't happen.

That' is, at least, how I interpret the remark made by Dorian, one of our current developers:
> Though, I don't really like the way it was done.
As much as I support what Brian did -- let there be no doubt about that -- I don't think this elective process was even or fair. I am glad the result suits most of us, because we can't be sure the outcome will be as pleasant if the same course is followed the next time we face hardship

Sorry for the typos on the previous post... Now, I seem to be beating a dead horse, but please bear me just a while longer.

I mentioned Carson's ideas and said I would return to that. His opinions on the matter at hand can be found him various threads, but a good starting point would be the "Special platform discussion" thread posted a while back (December 2005):
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?f=1&i=32768&t=32768

I seem to remember him stating that custom was the developers of k-meleon wanted just the key to the Lab to do their work, while others were needed to run the facility. To elaborate further: k-meleon developers, those brainy guys dwelling on the convolution of the code, seem to depict a deep aversion to being draged into menial discussions and tasks, such as user feedback on the forum or site weaving. But, as we have come to realize over the past year, these tasks are crucial to the persistence of k-meleon as a current web browsing alternative.

Like Brian, I am not a very technical person, I see computers more as mean to various ends, and that's why I have used them for the better part of two decades. But I am really affraid that my browser of choice may disappear, or dwindle into irrelevance, because no one can be found to at least open the door, when maintenance requests entrance.

So, in disagreement with Enaitz Jar, I am proposing myself, and I urge a few others to do the same, for an administrative position on the k-meleon project (I am thinking especially of everling). I tend to keep a low profile, unless I feel that I really have something worth contributing; because of that, some of you might find that I am claiming more than I am entitled to. Let me assure you that this no ego or power trip, just a matter of precaution.

Thanks for your patience my friends.

There's an old spanish refrain that says: "Take care about what you ask because you may obtain it"

I don't know how skilled you are and if your knowledge is proper to be an admin (I'm not saying it is not) but I have experience on leading groups of people and I know that big teams are most of the time useless and slow on doing things. That's why I would prefer a small team of about 3 people and that's also why I would like people as Dorian to be in.

I agree with you in the fact that as a matter of precaution we need somebody who is active on the forums (better if an skilled veteran one) and knows from where the wind blows in the devs team, but this was acomplished with the inclusion of Brian yesterday. Brian may not be the perfect option because I think (sorry Brian if I'm wrong) that there are some other people here better skilled, but there's better to have Brian there that to have Mister Invisible Man Ulf there.

If you think you are able to get inside just try it, but I'm afraid about if a problem as the one with Sourceforge database that happened two months ago happens again what could the devs team do about it if they are not properly prepared. You may want to ask yourself what should you have done with that problem. I asked it to myself yesterday because I had a brief idea (before Brian got in) about offering myself to the devs team. I forgot about it when I noticed that my solution should have been to ask Christophe or anybody else for help. Once we had just one active and contactable member of the devs (now Brian) my participation there is IMHO unneeded.

Being a member of the devs team is a responsability and I don't want to be the responsable of the dead or severe damage of K-Meleon project because of my innacuracy on solving problems I'm not prepared to solve.

Again, I'm not saying you are not prepared. I don't know how far your skills goes, I'm just asking you if you think you are prepared (and more prepared than the other people here). If so welcome onboard.

Ulf who has some experiance with runing a project said something like:
Why would You want to do that ...
- probably meaning: We could loose time with endles dicussions about politicies.

It consumes enormouse time when i have to write things that are not browser shop but politics - the reason is a behaviouristic linguistics & i knew i would waste time.

As Enaitz Jar said we have few trained coders and .... . Let me add
In the recent past we had to compensate this lack with great personal engagement and this will likely continue ( a windows browser is not very fashionable & will attract no nerds from outside = we get the browser that we can make ourselves ).

My point is clear - we can not "counsel" ppl like Dorian.
& we need a lean government and many workers.
And i hope we all see it that way.

Dear Enaitz Jar & guenter,

Much respect to you, but let's agree to disagree.

I can not volunteer to be one of the [hard] workers, I lack the skills and disponibility. But I can be, as many have been in the past, an enabler of the expressed wishes of the community -- and that's what I proposed myself for. As for what I would have done when the Sourceforge db was at risk, I have no certainty that I would solve it as well as Cristoph did, but I would at least get in there and try to dump the db content, so it would be available for upload when needed.

I believe the proof is in the pudding, compadre. If responsability is the issue, then members should voice their opposition in the forum and, right now or in the far future, I would imediatly stand down.

Politics is the way of the /polis/ and we make it everyday by chosing to speak or not, or by the way we speak in this forum (which BTW is a word that comes from the same source, the classic greek and roman world from where most of European culture issued). Understanding among peers is only useless if you want to rule them or if you don't think of them as peers.

Lastly, I wouldn't dream of counselling someone -- and Dorian even less -- about something he obviously knows much more than I do, and on what I would never be able to prove my points. I'd rather be quiet than babble cluelessly -- and I practice that everyday.

I've added Dorian to the K-Meleon admin list.

@Enaitz
I know I'm nowhere near the perfect option, but I feel that since I have much more time on my hands than a few others that I might be able to help with just keeping things going and making sure everything speeds along the way it should instead of being held up by people who don't share the ability to check on K-Meleon several times a day. This is the only reason I even considered adding myself as a Project Manager. If someone else comes along that is more experienced than myself and has close to as much, if not more, time on their hands, then I will step down. I am only trying to help to the best of my ability. I hope I will be able to help... and continue helping.

Brian

Thanks for your help Brian, I know you will do the best (and starting by adding Dorian to the admins is a good start). Now we can start thinking on the official 0.9.1.

And about that (I know this thread may not be the perfect place to say it) but how about releasing almost now a new official just with the Brian Brun's latest update patch, adding the translation macro and latest umlauts? Then later we can start to think in the new more advanced official version, including Dorian's new .exe.

We could have the 0.9.1 ready even today or tomorrow because it's currently build.

Well, Brian Bruns' update is secure, right? What about Fred's most recent build? So many choices;-). Personally, I think Freds could be sorta like 0.9.12+ and the one with Brian Bruns' update could be like just the plain 0.9.12... you know what I'm saying?

Brian

Heck, I think Fred's build would be perfect for the official 0.9.12 after he finishes up any last minute fixes and puts it all in an installer.

Brian

I think so, once tested (what about the MIME chrome?).

Does somebody here knows how to make an installer? And does Fred knows it?

I'm sure Fred will get to the Mime Types chrome soon. I know Hao knows how to create an installer, but I would only ask Hao if I didn't think Fred knew how. I don't know whether Fred knows how or not.

Brian

i rewrote/adapted mime types - only 4k-m & with 20 kb size.

- mtypes is normally part of moz/comm.jar/communicator/pref...
- i had a fault problem with my work - it is not Fred´s fault, sorry.

i found a bug: suddendly - and asked Fred not to use my/the smalled chrome.

so he did not use parts of it.

actually You can use any older working mimetypes in place!

What ever the official build is decided upon. Please include the install program with it.

Thank you, Christophe.

Thank you, Brian and the rest of you guys that work on the project.

Kmeleon lives on!

@guenter
Oh, I didn't realize this. Does this mean that Fred will simply add the older mimetypes in or will he wait 'til the bug is fixed? Maybe instead of asking, I should ask him;-)... unless, of course, you know the answers to my questions.

@Culpeper
It just wouldn't be official without the installer, so I'm sure it will be included. Thank me? Thank you, Culpeper. It's users like you that keep the lizard going. I am going to make a very unofficial guess about the time that a new official will be released... this is a GUESS, just a guess:
January 13, 2005 (Friday the 13th, AHHHHH!!!) ;-)

Brian

Well, it may have taken a crowbar to open up the developer's list, but it is definitely open now. As some have said here, it was not the optimum way to do things, but that is now history.

Brian and now Dorian are on the developer's list and we no longer have to pray for ex-developers to come back and pay attention to K-Meleon. That is good news imo.

N

"we no longer have to pray for ex-developers to come back and pay attention to K-Meleon."

Yes, my thanks goes to Christophe for being so cooperative.

Brian

Brian,

N>>> "we no longer have to pray for ex-developers to come back and pay attention to K-Meleon."

B>>> Yes, my thanks goes to Christophe for being so cooperative.

I hope Christophe has read the posts in this thread. He has been a real lifesaver for K-Meleon and deserves all credit for reinvolving himself in the project in a timely fashion.

N

Yes he created it, saved it, and now have give it life by letting some of us to have admin rights.

All praise Christophe! :-D

Brian

Yeah. Things tend to move faster, if you have shotgun to your head.
If I was little pushy, it was for grater good.
I hope you understand that.

Many Cheers to all members/team of K-Meleon family for such excellent progress
and look forward to release when stable /fully tested by all

I was Hopeful, now I am truly Grateful !

K-meleon Rocks !.

A bloodless coup heh? Oh well sometimes you have to do what you have to do.

Mind you if you had've just emailed Ulf then it needn't have been so messy. The last time I emailed hime he was still quite responsive. I suppose now if you have any technical questions he may be reluctant to answer even them, only time will tell.

Well, Christophe was the only one who responded to the APT, so either Andrew and Ulf don't care or they didn't receive the e-mails.

Brian