I didn't know we were in a competition. Oh, that's right, we're not. I with the best of luck to Phoenix but I'm not going to get into a fight about who is "better". As I said before, each browser has its own strengths and I know users who will never use Phoenix because it simply will never meet their needs. I know the same can be said for K-Meleon.

We depend on Mozilla work for this browser and in turn, K-Meleon developers and users have contributed bugs, code and testing to the Mozilla project. I don't see any need to get into some non-productive argument that only serves to damage that relationship.

> I don't see any need to get into some non-productive argument that only serves to damage that relationship.

I'm sure Blake just got caught in the moment reading Alans highly offensive posts, and realizes that 1 "less civil" K-Mel user does not represent neighter the K-Mel devteam nor most K-Mel users viewpoint

"You're blatantly bitter about Phoenix's success :-(, but you're also, sadly, misinformed."

I'm blatantly aware that I'm in a K-Meleon forum telling a Phoenix developer what an irrelevant piece of hype his Mozilla slicing product, Phoenix, is.


"Yeah, we all work on Mozilla -- you figured out our "secret"! Uh, or something. I was responding to a point made that we're all programmers by trade, which, as you just confirmed, isn't true."

No, what I did was shed some serious light on your bologna about a statement taken out of context.


"30,000 lines of code have already been changed or added in Phoenix."

Yeah, I know about the 30,000 lines of code rant that you're compelled to put up in the FAQ section of the Phoenix releases page. 30,000 lines of bullshit is what I call it. Let's take a closer at this one by one:


"The sidebar and panels have been rewritten"

WOW! What an innovation.


"Global history has been over-hauled"

Another WOW. Whoopdy ho ho and frickin do.


"Download manager has been overhauled"

Come again? Two things. First, you make it sound as if Mozilla really had a download manager. You call that 'thing' in Mozilla a download manager? Secondly, you must, since the 'rewritten' download manager in Phoenix is just about as worthless as the one in Mozilla. BTW, you use the term 'download manager' far too loosely.


"A new web form autocomplete"

A new implementation of web form auto-complete from that of Mozilla. Now that's what I call innovation beyond comprehension. Yet another 'Wow'.


"The tabgroups have been rewritten"

Jesus Holy Moly. Come on everybody, let's all break out the potatoe chips and beer! Yet another rewrite!


"Bookmarks have been rewritten"

For the love of God Almighty himself! Another innovative marvel worthy of the biggest 'WOW' yet.


"Customizable toolbars are brand new"

BINGO! Yes, I know.


In summary, one big gigantic whoopdy-ho-ho and do! Six reinventions of the wheel followed up with a Mozilla-relative only innovation of customizable toolbars. Let's all break out the party poppers and start calling the national news agencies so we can get the word out.



"honestly, must I go on?"

Yes, of course! By all means please do!!!


"You're dead wrong."

Huh? Come again?


"Oh, one more point you're dead wrong about: Phoenix is based off the daily trunk. Every release of Phoenix is the latest possible Mozilla code."

Uh, and one more point that you're dead wrong about. I'm well aware of what Phoenix is based on now, I was entirely referring to the approx. time in which it started, Sherlock.


"You know, the Phoenix team didn't set out to compete with K-meleon, even though all signs indicate that we're already defeating it."

I'll tell you what all the signs indicate. They indicate that you have nothing but a little Mozilla slicer on your hands. A Mozilla Userbase Fragmenter is what Phoenix amounts to more than anything else, and what amounts to me as a complete and total joke.


-Alan
kmeleon32@yahoo.com

When the devs of two different projects get in a fight, they sure do look like fools.

So if you're competing (I'm talking to both Phoenix and KM's devs), prove that your own project is the best.

And if you're claiming to be not competing, why fight with each other?

boy... what a long thread...

Chris Granger brought it to the point:
try both browsers... decide... kick one or the other...or both

xXx.

P.S letz now go over to the more important things of life, shall we?
like having a beer with a couple of friends

To Blake:
Very interesting comments about Phoenix, thanks.

So is Mozilla broken beyond any hope? Or why Phoenix with all its rewrites? Couldn't the Phoenix team concentrate their efforts on Mozilla instead of starting a new project? Is Phoenix code going back into Mozilla at some point? Or is Mozilla dead and the name Phoenix is more fitting than I thought?

> So is Mozilla broken beyond any hope? Or why Phoenix with all its rewrites? Couldn't the Phoenix team concentrate their efforts on Mozilla instead of starting a new project?

Much of the answers to this can be found in the FAQs on the Phoenix site as well as in the forums.

Basicly though they want to create a slim fast browser based on Gecko that don't have to think about backward compability, comercial interests or decisions for changes taking months. In short it's pretty much what Chimera, Galeon and K-Meleon are on different platforms except they are going down the XUL/crossOS path.

> Is Phoenix code going back into Mozilla at some point?

Well, it's open source and it's even in the CSV so I would assume good features will get picked up by Moz sooner or later (probably later due to all the red tape involved with changing stuff in Moz).

> is Mozilla dead and the name Phoenix is more fitting than I thought?

Well, considering Phoenix is always built directly on latest Mozilla Trunk hopefully Mozilla is not dead but will coexsist in symbiosis with Phoenix

"When the devs of two different projects get in a fight, they sure do look like fools. So if you're competing (I'm talking to both Phoenix and KM's devs), prove that your own project is the best. And if you're claiming to be not competing, why fight with each other?"


1. I'm not a K-Meleon developer. I just started getting into it a week or so ago and I have absolutely no official relation with K-Meleon whatsoever, so don't hold what I said against any official K-Meleon member.

2. Blake didn't do anything wrong, neither did Stefan for that matter. I said some pretty harsh things about a project that would have just about lured anyone involved with said project to respond.

Not only was I way out of line but I acted like quite the idiot, too.



-Alan
kmeleon32@yahoo.com

It's been a while, but here's my two cents on the posts surrounding mine.


Stefan: Links is included in most newer linux distributions(Mandrake and Red Hat, at least) in lieu of lynx. I was really hoping for something closer to netpositive for BeOS(which runs well on 32MB of ram, and is basically just a very basic HTML renderer), because I like the pretty pictures.

Bender:Is calling someone a trollmaster trolling?

Blake:

As far as I call this one, KM is a success(for that matter, so is Phoenix). Perhaps the userbase of Phoenix is larger, but if that's the only criteria we use to judge a piece of software, we're all chumps for not using IE/Windows XP all the time. I think anybody thinking rationally about this will agree that if the web browser does what it's creators and users want it to do, everybody wins -- regardless of the paticulars of a certain choice. In this case, as a satisfed KM user, I can say that KM is a success. regardless of other projects out there, I needed a small, fast, standards compliant web browser which is immensely stable and bug free. While phoenix certainly meets these criteria to some degree, it simply can't scale to the systems I need to run on (Try Phoenix on a machine with 32 MBs of RAM and a few internet servers running, and tell me it's really as quick as KM -- my own experience tells me that's not the case.) Phoenix would be fine on a faster machine, IMHO, and I wouldn't have any problems recommending it to someone who wanted to try a different web browser but didn't want to use KM(it happens. KM is very much a bare bones web browser in that it will sacrifice features for speed, stability, and it's mission statement (see the time when I wanted a feature included but was told that it "really wasn't something a web browser should be doing"), and some people can't live without the features). It seems solid enough, but it's not appropriate for my purposes. On the other hand, If you want a smaller browser which still has all the features, Phoenix is probably great -- but for me, a person who just looks at webpages using the default config of whatever browser I'm using, and I'm used to a very existential, Mosaic type experience(mosaic wasn't exactly laden with features), it just isn't the right mix.

Attacking the K-Meleon community is not the best way to prove that Phoenix is superior. All it proves is that you've resorted to personal attacks instead of arguement. There are probably hundreds of things which make either browser superior, but a virtual "you're a poopy head, and the KM community is stoopid" is not one of them. Indeed, it makes you look bad, rather than the other way around.

Also, if you are really a phoenix dev as is indicated later on in the thread, try not to take offense at the phoenix bashing on this board. Try to understand that every since Phoenix 0.1 came out, we've been innundated with posts extolling the virtues of Phoenix -- many, like this thread, insinuating that the project should be dropped because phoenix exists. Imagine if a bunch of pushy KM users started flooding the Phonix message boards extolling the virtues of KM, demanding that Phoenix stop development because there's already a light mozilla-based web browser. I'm fairly certain you'd do the same thing people on this board have done -- begin nicely, explaining the differences between the two and the place for each, but as the posts pile up, get a little more adverserial. In a thread started with "why use K-melon<sic> when we have phoenix?", It's a testament to the KM community that facts were the first thing presented, rather than namecalling. I would have begun with namecalling if someone asked the same kind of question about Quest for a King on Powerusrs Gaming, personally.

If anything, there are two very important and valuable lessons to be learned from this thread.

First, we must exercise special care when dealing with Phoenix developers and/or Phoenix advocates here in the K-Meleon forums. Especially so in regards to the Phoenix developers as they come from deep within the bosom of Mozilla's propoganda outlet, Mozillazine. An environment which psychologically masturbates them into believing their product is materially significant, the Alpha and the Omega, the greatest thing since sliced bread.

So just imagine the shock that the Phoenix developers and advocates must feel when they emerge from the bosoms of their fostering lair to discover just how inconsequential and/or irrelevant their product really is, or at the very least, that their product is simply not liked or preferred in lieu of something else. It must come as quite a blow to both their egos and state of mind. In the future, we must be more sensitive to this and gently, but firmly, guide them down the hard road of reality in an atmosphere of empathy and support.

Secondly, this thread is a perfect example of what can happen when Phoenix is advocated in a K-meleon forum. Whether it be myself, or anyone else out there on the www (the wild wild web), the gloves can, at any time, come off and things get out of line. Turning what started as Phoenix advocacy into a very messy Phoenix rip and mulch session.


-Alan
kmeleon32@yahoo.com

> It must come as quite a blow to both their egos and state of mind.... ...guide them down the hard road of reality...

Interesting post you made there Alan. As I see it this thread has mainly been about me pointing out just that hard reality and beeing called a troll becuase of it
Makes me wonder who really has an "ego and state of mind" problem.

> Mozilla's propoganda outlet, Mozillazine.

To me it seem that there is a small fraction of K-Mel Users that border on fanatical when it comes to defending statements that everybody can easily verify for them selfs to be incorrect.
Wonder what propaganda outlet you have been listening too...

90% of what's been written in this thread would not have been needed if people would just have spent 5 minutes verifying the things I've pointed out to be incorrect statements, instead of just jumping to the conclusion that I'm trolling.

Dear heavens, yes. There were a variety of events taking place here that reeked of the all encompassing bullshit that is Phoenix.

We'll start with the first flamebait post by tmozb, the exact same one who posted the exact same thing to the ill-fated kmeleon forum at Mozilla.orgs propoganda outlet, Mozillazine.

Next we have Asa Dotzlers (the Mozilla 'organ') half smart ass / half bullshit hype post about Phoenix.

After that we have 'Frank' and his 'Yeah... Asa' play.

Next we have you and your: "Are you really this clueless about what is happening in this thread? There is a difference between trying to "convert people" and pointing out huge flaws in the arguments of benefits of K-Mel vs Pnx."

You said earlier that the above statement was taken out of context. I don't see how a statement so clear as the above could possibly be taken any other way. Point being, deny to your hearts content.... this dog ain't gonna hunt.

And soon after the following statement to me:

"Yes, sadly there are a large ammount of people on this board that for some reason think that making up stuff out of the blue about other browsers in some way helps K-Meleon."

That doesn't help your case much either in attempting to cover up your bullshit.

Then enters Blake, the Phoenix developer, and his load of scruff.

The whole thing reeked of bullshit. Pure, raw, unadulterated Phoenix bullshit that is.


As such, I thoroughly enjoyed taking full advantage of this opportunity to express wholeheartedly the hyped up bantha fodder that Phoenix is.


-Alan
kmeleon32@yahoo.com

> Next we have Asa Dotzlers (the Mozilla 'organ') half smart ass / half bullshit hype post about Phoenix.

Specify exactly what is incorrect in ASAs statements, becuse I sure don't see any.

The problem here is obviously that K-Meleon is not a browser to you, it's a religion. You don't see, you don't hear, you don't think, you just push on forward like a religious fanatic.

> After that we have 'Frank' and his 'Yeah... Asa' play.

Yes, that was a pretty useless post.

> cover up your bullshit.

My bullshit?
Sofar I have not made an incorrect statement in this thread about K-Mel vs Phoenix AFAIK.

Fanatics like you however are not bothered by meaningless things like the truth, thus you happily attacked me on a personal level, without even bothering to check the facts (or you decide to attack me even though you knew I was right, trying to make sure the truth didn't get out there).

> Then enters Blake, the Phoenix developer, and his load of scruff.

The only bad post by Blake was the one where he posted in anger in reply to your very offensive post.

You are definitly a very bad representatrive for K-Mel and Fanatics like you probably will scare off people from using this browser at all. And even worse, you might manage to create a bad relation between K-Mel and other Gecko development projects becuase of your crusade.

BTW, who told you to make that apologetic post a few days ago?
It's obvious that you neighter did meant a single word nor do you intend to chill down and post normal sencible posts.

You just made your confession to get an "absolvence" and then continue on right where you left off like the religious fanatic you are.

"My bullshit?"

Why yes, your bullshit. I take enormous pleasure in putting to you an instruction that you have so liberally plagued this thread with in giving others. That instruction is..... read your posts. Read them in chronological order, with a clear and focused mind. A mind driven by logic, not emotion or ego. Therein lies the truth to what I just said earlier.

"Sofar I have not made an incorrect statement in this thread about K-Mel vs Phoenix AFAIK."

Yes, you keep saying that, and the more you say that, the deeper of a hole you dig for yourself.


Another thing that I did forget to mention. Someone here referred to Phoenix as 'the bastard child of mozilla'. I liked that. Except, I would phrase it as 'The Bastard Child of the Cow Mozilla'..... a BCCM.

A BCCM it is, and from here on out it shall be reffered to as such..


-Alan

I take enormous DISpleasure in that a fanatic like you dig a huge hole for K-Meleon.

It's sad becuse it's a greate browser and your "other browser rasist" views hurts it by scaring sensible people away from this forum.
Who ever reading your posts would like to belong to the same excluded misfit group as you do by using K-Meleon?

Defintly not the future I would like for K-Mel.

"Who ever reading your posts would like to belong to the same excluded misfit group as you do by using K-Meleon?"

Irony in its purest form.

I've wondered the same thing about the Mozilla community for years now.


-Alan

Stefan, Alan:

Get a life!

We have two great choices.

Deal with it.

Wow! I just got back from a weeks vacation and this thread is still going on, and boy has it degenerated into a slanging match, which is really a poor state of affairs from both parties concerned, and a poor reflection on both the Phoenix *and* K-Meleon communities (yes both).

> Wow! I just got back from a weeks vacation and this thread is still going on,

Actually right now it's you and 2 others that is keeping it active and pushing it back up to the top of the threadslist.

There was about 15 threads above it just a few hours ago.
Hope you 3 are proud of your accomplishment.

Yep, and you make 4 buddy. >;]

Please, let behave, Kmeleon has its features and Pheonix has it features and people choose what they like, so Why are we fighting about what program is better like when we were young?

Let finish this conversation, Pheonix is good and kmeleon is better *joke *

Now I bet Stefan will try and get the last word in... ;-)

Quake, I think the reason this has turned into phoenix crapshoot is the way the question was presented in the first place, and the way the stefan was egging everybody on(does it really flippin' matter whether or not our information on phoenix is up to the second accurate? I'm not about to judge you as a "trollmaster", but certainly in a thread where users are forced to justify KMs existance like this, you sticking your two cents in doesn't help things for either side.

When the phoenix developer came in, things really hit the wall, because he, like us, is defensive of his own project. He feels pride on what he's accomplished, and justifyably so, just as devs on this project should. At that point, resolution is practically impossible, short of the KM community collectively going "oh yeah, we were wrong. Phoenix is the best. We'll never touch KM again".

Personally, I wish the trolls who keep bringing up phoenix like this would go home. Stefan said we needed to be able to discuss other browsers, and we do discuss them -- we just don't get put on the defensive every time it's brought up. It's one thing to ask "why doesn't KM have this cool feature I saw in phoenix yet?". It's quite another to ask "give me ten good reasons why your project should continue development. Phoenix exists, why waste the effort?"

Man, what a thread. I gotta give Alan a kudos for riding the 'stephan' wave. That's how stephan works, just wears a person down by repeatedly replying to the point that the other person is just wore out and doesnt care anymore. Always wanting that last word. Not this time. Alan was on him like white on rice the whole way through, including the Phoenix devs.

Hopefully the Phoenix trolls learned a good lesson.

I'm not going to try Phoenix now because I didn't like how the developer came to the forum and telling the community that *kmeleon sucks*

Everybody has its preferences and developper should learn about each other so that they can make the product better.

> does it really flippin' matter whether or not our information on phoenix is up to the second accurate?

Some of the things I pointed out as incorrect was NEVER true about Phoenix. They where just made up out of the blue (hopefully out of ignorance).

As I've said a few times now, K-Mel is good enough to stand on it's own merits without people adding things on the K-Mel pro list that exists in other browsers too.

> but certainly in a thread where users are forced to justify KMs existance like this, you sticking your two cents in doesn't help things for either side.

In my first post I emphasised that 3 of the 5 mentioned things by Andrew was indeed advantages for K-Mel, and one was "it depends".
I've also pointed at other benefist that K-Mel has vs especially Phoenix

I can't help nor be blamed for that people choose to read just selected parts of my messages.

> That's how stephan works, just wears a person down by repeatedly replying to the point that the other person is just wore out and doesnt care anymore.

Actually it more to the point where the even the largest religious fanatic can no longer argument against hard facts and reality.

And if Alan is your rolemodel for how to behave on a forum, I think it's really time for you to rethink your view of how to talk/debate with people.
You should treat people with the same respect on the internet as you would in real life. The "Anonimity" of the internet is not a valid reason to use namecalling and swearing in posts.

> Hopefully the Phoenix trolls learned a good lesson.

I would hope that more people (K-mel as well as Pnx users) have learned to actually think before they reply.
It would be nice to have fewer posts from religious fanatics and more from people that can discuss facts in a grown up manner.

> I'm not going to try Phoenix now because I didn't like how the developer came to the forum and telling the community that *kmeleon sucks*

Yes, that was definitly not a good post, but you need to read it in context of Alans highly offensive posts.
I'm sure most people would have reacted just as Blake when faced posts like this by Alan:

> What a complete load of backward assed bullsh*t!
>It is sheer astonishment that there is anybody that completely void of intellect who would think those numbers mean diddly squat. Even more astonishing that someone would be brain dead enough to compare that with the release rates of other projects.
>Save that pathetic 'Phoenix milestone release rate' rant for some nitwit who is gullible enough to buy into it.

I use K-Meleon because I want a fast loading, minimal browser with graphics. I want it simple and I want it to work with most web pages. I haven't seen anything else that does these things as well as K-Meleon.

I don't need or want buttons, tabs, bookmarks, or history lists. My customization consists of removing them, which amounts to a few clicks and plain text editing of some existing variables with no compression or renaming necessary (well, I do back it up. a hint from another thread).

The privacy options are great and can help me get pages faster over my dial-up connection, but I've seen most of these options in Netscape and IE.

I can't install some old plug-ins, like the old cosmo vrml plug-in (without installing Netscape and copying the files), but I don't see how it would be any different with Pheonix or any other third party browser.

I could switch to Phoenix, Mozilla, Netscape, or IE, but I can't see why.