Dorian,

One little niggling point here. I don't care for closing this thread immediately after you made your pronouncement about how things are done around here. Which is why I am starting a new thread to continue talking IN THE FORUM about K-Meleon issues.

(Dorian)
"To tell you the truth, I have no clue why people would prefer 1.0 over 1.1 because I've never heard about it. We have the BT and the Wiki; I've warned I'm not reading everything in the forum; I can easily forget stuff if it's not mentionned somewhere I can see it again. But I know one thing: the number of open bug in the BT has drastically decreased, and most of the issues mentionned in the wiki were fixed (how many are looking there anyways?)."

I am on the periphery of K-Meleon these days, but I go way back with the browser. I've always been the enthusiast, not a coder and come at the browser from that perspective.

I have to take issue with your statement above about why people want km 1.0 over KM 1.1 and the idea that you have never heard anything about it. I'll give you one reason why you don't know this which is that Forum use has been replaced by use of the BT which is much harder to use and therefore less used by the user base. So lack of feedback is in part a fault of the new regime or system. People WERE used to using the Forums to report bugs and some (myself included) did not use the BT or the Wiki.

As to why some would prefer 1.0 (or indeed 0.9xxx) over 1.1, you need look no further than the new macro language. It is not well documented and has a steeper learning curve. I personally think it will be very good (over time), but suffers from a good FAQ.

Just my two cents worth.

N



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2007 02:11PM by ndebord.

Seasons Greetings to you ndebord. If you do remove any of the themes will that be
only those with Ninja in the name? What about the others originally created by Al?
Seems that a solution could be arrived at where they all stay put. I do bet other
users like to have lots of themes. Call me nuts but I have ALL the KM and K-Ninja
themes installed. And I use a separate profile for each one. Please forgive my
intrusion if this thread is only for answers from Dorian. :+)

Themes Nut,

I'm not involved in the themes dispute directly. The final word will between those who have worked on themes and/or on variations on the browser.

My personal feeling is that the themes (in the past) have been a collaborative effort and were just posted on the Wiki as they showed up and were discussed here in the Forum to find out if they worked properly or not. Over time, a lot of themes were developed and in the last year or so, several of them kind of vanished. Only recently have some of the old themes and some news ones appeared on the scene.

As KM 1.1xxxx is a major change in the browser, I believe you could safely say that theme development took a backseat for a period of time and now that themes are front and center once again, differing opinions about theme and the browser itself have started to surface.

FWIW, IMO, this thread is for everyone, not just Dorian. I just felt the need to respond to his post in the thread that was closed, so I started a new one.

<wry grin>

N



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2007 04:29PM by ndebord.

ndebord,

For the sake of clarity, it might be useful to state that BT stands for Bug Tracker...

Respect.

foobarly,

Thanks. Should have said Bug Tracker from the start.

N

Quote
Dorian
kko can stop distributing the skins. (and after this I have to ask him to do so)

He can and he did.

I've made a mistake and I apology.

Sorry, Al.


As far as I'm concerned, this inglorious chapter is closed. My consequence out of it - which is why this is on this thread's topic - is that I'm going to follow Dorian's example and will reduce my engagement in forum support. After more than two years of solving other peoples' problems, struggling with ignorance, I'm slightly going mad.

Requests for improvements can be addressed to me through the BTS or the Wiki (or by mail). I hope that this will ensure a certain level of relevance and quality, and will help me conserving my mental health.

PS: It's not because of you, ndebord, or anybody else in particular. There was just the straw that broke the camel's back...

Apology accepted kko, no harm done.

I personally am not going to get into any long protracted discussions as to this whole issue anymore, I explained the situation clearly in the other thread, and to be quite honest was surprised at some of the reaction.

Good news. I will be placing a new page up at my website in relation to the themes. I had no idea that anyone was still seriously interested in them, they are still some available on the Wiki (and also on Deviantart thanks to Brian Thompson), but other than that yeah, they're legacy themes (meaning for K-Meleon v0.8 & v0.9). I might update them for v1.0 if I feel so inclined.

To guenter I don't have much to say. An email would've sufficed. You've sent me emails before for different reasons, which I've gladly replied to. But not a simple "hey Al. do you mind if...?"

As to K-Ninja, I'll still answer questions about it quite happily. To be fair to the K-Meleon developers of course not in these forums. My email address is on my page plus there's a couple of guys using the Google Group as well.

To ndebord thanks for your email :-)


Al.

Al.,

Please don't be too angry on guenter before you know the whole story (why he is away and why I published his skins). It is left to him to explain that when he's back.

Dear ndebord,
I'm not agree with your opinion.

In my him opinion both, forum and Bug Tracker, must be used.
In forum you can post your problem and share with others users if is a personal configuration problem or a general problem. Forum is a tool to do test and report all info needed to create a bug report in Bug Tracker one time this is really confirmed. In BT you can find all info needed to fix the problem, this is a great tool for all coders and this easy his work very much. When you are a devoloper you don't have time for read hundred of threads searching bugs an info needed to fix it.

About ndebord's words:
"As to why some would prefer 1.0 (or indeed 0.9xxx) over 1.1, you need look no further than the new macro language. It is not well documented and has a steeper learning curve. I personally think it will be very good (over time), but suffers from a good FAQ."

The answer to this question is the same that why there are people that used IE 5.0 or Firefox 1.5 or Mozilla 1.0 or Netscape 4.5 or why there are people that used Win9x or Winamp 2.x or 3.x.
Simply users are too vague or ignorant to update it, or they love older software.

I'm agree with kko, we should dedicate to developed of program and the wiki page and documentatrion to better it, instead of resolve doubts always the same for all users of the forum, when most of this doubts cuold be solved by him if they read documentation available but it's more easy post a question in forum and wait to someone stupid do all work for him and answer it.

Regarding Al's position to guenter not just for me.
Guenter did all work in good faith, for update your work (contributed to all K-Meleon/K-Ninja comunity as a gift for christmass) and not for stollen it as Al thinks. If guenter not send mail to Al to question about this is because he thinks that skins was the same that are in wiki and this had GPL license.
(As everybody belive it)
Almost you must remmember that it's a ligth update (and installer included) not a hard skins modifications.

If Al don't want to continue colaborated with us K-M project with his skins he have says us only and we will worked in new skins from zero.

To all people of forum, i wish your happy christmass and a new objetive to new year:

1º) READ THE FUCK DOCUMENTATION!,
2º) SEARCH IN FORUM!,
3º) AND ONLY IF ANY RESULT OBTAINED, ASK IN FORUM!

I think it is not difficult to understand, just a little common sense.
Thanks.

desag2,

Wow, what an interesting post. Just to comment on your opinion about why people do or do not upgrade to newer versions. Sometimes the changes are not self-evident nor are they properly implemented. I know you have been around here for some time, so think back to how the Forum was used in the past to help discuss and develop new features BEFORE the code went Gold.

Merry Christmas.

N



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2007 09:23PM by ndebord.

Quote
ndebord
...to help discuss and develop new features BEFORE the code went Gold.

Then go for it BEFORE the code goes Gold: K-Meleon 1.5a1

If Al don't want to continue colaborated with us K-M project with his skins he have says us only and we will worked in new skins from zero.

What needs to be done is the ThemesWiki needs some reorganisation and sorting. The original idea that jsnj had wasn't bad to start with, but impractical when it comes to adding new themes. The problem is pages have to be renumbered and suffled back whenever there is an accumulation of new themes. Originally when there wasn't so many there were individual pages for each author (hence the old Themes by Al. page which somebody really dug around for).

Whoops I'm getting sidetracked here.

Like I mentioned there will be a page placed up on my website soon for my themes. All i's will be dotted and t's crossed this time to avoid confusion.

There may even be updates to them. We'll have to wait and see how things pan out.

1º) READ THE F*** DOCUMENTATION!,
2º) SEARCH IN FORUM!,
3º) AND ONLY IF ANY RESULT OBTAINED, ASK IN FORUM!

Sensible advice, could've done without the swearing though.


Al.


Al.

Sorry about that ndebord and kko. I did mean to ask kko the questions about the
themes. Is there any place where any of them can currently be downloaded? Thanks

Forgot this. Al, what is that current website for K-Ninja? Is that where updated
K-Meleon themes are or will be? Also I still do not understand. What is in the future for K-Ninja? Anything?

Themes: http://geoc|ities.com/grenleef/themes.html (remove the |)

As for K-Ninja... hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil...


Al.

Silly formatting. btw why is GEO-CITIES (remove the dash) a banned word?


Al.

Quote
Al.
1) READ THE F*** DOCUMENTATION!,
2) SEARCH IN FORUM!,
3) AND ONLY IF ANY RESULT OBTAINED, ASK IN FORUM!

Just to point that as much as desga2 advice might be sensible, finding information on K-Meleon is sometimes difficult, even for seasoned users, in the maze of sources that this (crawling) site has always been...

In the spirit of the season, let us all be a little more forgiving of the shortcomings of others -- after all, we can just ignore them, if we feel like -- so we can expect others to forgive our own.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/13/2007 11:41AM by foobarly.

kko, if I understand correctly your website had themes by Al and Guenter. Any idea
if Guenter plans to post his themes somewhere else?

Quote
Themes Nut
I did mean to ask kko the questions about the themes. Is there any place where any of them can currently be downloaded?

Quote
Fred
kko, if I understand correctly your website had themes by Al and Guenter. Any idea if Guenter plans to post his themes somewhere else?

Read my website. As far as I'm concerned, I'm through with this. I never spent time on custom skins before and I'm not going to ever do that again. May take care of them whoever wants, I won't for sure.

Quote
foobarly
Just to point that as much as desga2 advice might be sensible, finding information on K-Meleon is sometimes difficult, even for seasoned users, in the maze of sources that this (crawling) site has always been...

In the spirit of the season, let us all be a little more forgiving of the shortcomings of others -- after all, we can just ignore them, if we feel like -- so we can expect others to forgive our own.

Maybe someone would like to donate a free server and support so this site doesn't 'crawl'. In the spirit of the season, of course.

Quote
ndebord
one reason why you don't know this which is that Forum use has been replaced by use of the BT which is much harder to use and therefore less used by the user base. So lack of feedback is in part a fault of the new regime or system. People WERE used to using the Forums to report bugs and some (myself included) did not use the BT or the Wiki.

I think the forum is great to talk about problem, and sort them. Now there is a lack of people to transmit the results to the developper (through the BT/Wiki).

Quote
ndebord
As to why some would prefer 1.0 (or indeed 0.9xxx) over 1.1, you need look no further than the new macro language. It is not well documented and has a steeper learning curve. I personally think it will be very good (over time), but suffers from a good FAQ.

Macro in 1.1 didn't change. They were just splitted into diffrent files and kko restructured them. Old macros can still work like they do with 1.0

Quote

The answer to this question is the same that why there are people that used IE 5.0 or Firefox 1.5 or Mozilla 1.0 or Netscape 4.5 or why there are people that used Win9x or Winamp 2.x or 3.x.
Simply users are too vague or ignorant to update it, or they love older software.

Al. implied there was something else.

Quote

Silly formatting. btw why is GEO-CITIES (remove the dash) a banned word?

Too many spammers using it. Removed the ban for now.

Al. implied there was something else.

Yeah I know. Judging by some of the more popular requests received for K-Ninja, I'd say usability was a main driving factor, or a certain combination of elements (macros + plugins) bundled together.

From my own observations a lot of people still use the dated Netscape v7.2. Why? They like the Netscape brand + it was the last "suite". When people recommend they switch to the latest Seamonkey they still hesitate.

Just my 2 cents worth,

Al.

Quote
Dorian
Macro in 1.1 didn't change. They were just splitted into diffrent files and kko restructured them. Old macros can still work like they do with 1.0

"can still work" might be correct, but the effort that one has to invest to get a minimum of them working like they do in 1.0 is much too high. I did spend about 3 hours trying to adapt my old modified k-m version to the new one without luck. I did also spend some (and imo too much) time reading the so called documentation for the new macro language.
Since then I'm back @1.0.2 and will stay there unless seamonkey builds aren't compatible anymore and security flaws will force me to use something else. It was sad to see that the browser that I'm using + modifying for over 5 years now and which was (+still is -which is ridiculous nowadays-) considered to be "the browser you control" did turn into an unconfigureable and ugly js-style monster from one day to another.

cheers,

sensai

sensai,

I think you hit the nail on the head. I too had troubles with my extensive customized macros in KM 1.1. Gave up trying to modify them for the new macro language. And so, I too, am using KM 1.0.2 with Seamonkey builds security updates (much thanks to Fred here).

N

I think you didn't get it. 1.0 Macros still work because you can use your macros.cfg from 1.0 with 1.1 if you keep it in your profile.

Now, this will not be possible in 1.5 if you don't report compatibility issues, because this time the language did really change.

@ ndebord
or people who want to use their old personal macros
in K-Meleon 1.1.3.

At the top of the file /defaults/settings/menus.cfg write :

Personal{
Name_of_first_macro=macro(macronamefirst)
Name_of_second_macro=macro(macronamesecond)
etc. below that line for all your personal macros
}

and below :

&Personal{
!Personal
}

then go to the part

# ----- Main

and add, below the line
:&Tools
the line:
:&Personal

Close the browser.

Rename the old /defaults/settings/menus.cfg to menus.cfg-old
just in case you would not succeed.
and save menus.cfg to its origin (as "All files", not as "text").

Rename your personal macros.cfg into macros.kmm.
Paste macros.kmm into the folder macros inside the K-Meleon root folder.

Restart the browser, and an entry "Personal", containing your personal
macros should be in the menu bar.
If an alert for doubled macros should appear, reduce macros.kmm
to your personal macros only.

I hope that my explanation can help.
Regards
Fred