EU says M$ must offer other browsers in Windows 7.

Why not offer Micro$oft K-Meleon in Windows 7?

K-Meleon in Spanish

Sure K-Meleon is after all an European product



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2009 12:44PM by guenter.

yes.. i read this on bbc. i think ms will just ignore and pay fine later(as usual) or maybe the other browser they will provide is maxthon .. or if they really want to trick the EU they will offer offby1 there are so many legal loops.. don't think ms will actually add a real competitive browser

Requiring Microsoft to include other browsers in Windows is like requiring K-Meleon, Firefox, Seamonkey, Opera, etc. to include the Trident engine in their browsers.

EC fines for monopolists for non compliance with regulations have been substantial.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/06/2009 10:15PM by guenter.

@ Bud:
A similar case in EU was win by EU with Windows XP and his Windows MediaPlayer.
In EU Windows XP is sold in two versions, with and without Windows Media Player.

Video about this topic in spanish. (Look that K-Meleon logo is showed in background with others browsers logos.

New IE is named Gazella, but i'm sure that it will continued to be IE with other name and new engine but IE at the end.

K-Meleon in Spanish



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2009 01:47PM by desga2.

The EU tries to be a dictatorship regardless what they may say. Apparently the poor EUer's can not decide for them selves which of the many free alternet browsers they want to use, so their commie/fascist/socialist/wannabee dictatortship has to make their decisions for them. I wonder when the EUer's are going to stand up for them selves against such tyranny.

The way I see it, the EU is in competition with the Un-United Nations to see who can screw things up the most. And sadly the US seems to be trying to follow in their foot steps.

Charlie

~~If it ain't broke, why screw it up?~~

Quote
desga2
New IE is named Gazella

Then K-Meleon's rename = ceethah.

@ cactus: No, ECommunity was in competition with US and UN / EC ended 3nd, Guess who won



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/07/2009 09:20PM by guenter.

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guenter
Guess who won tongue sticking out smiley

Don't know if anyone really "won" but I figure one thing is certain, consumers loose.

Charlie

~~If it ain't broke, why screw it up?~~

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caktus
The EU tries to be a dictatorship regardless what they may say.

Nice troll.

The EU watches out for the consumers by punishing illegal monopolies like this decade-long IE bundling, only to have misguided individuals whining about how the EU is against choice and acting like a tyran. Sad.

In the meantime, it looks like Windows 7 finally delivers the feature we have been asking for for years. The ability to uninstall IE.

@Charlie, EC commission mostly did a fair job against abuse by monopolists and cartel agreements. & If someone is found guilty the fines sure are substantial.

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BenoitRen
Nice troll.

it looks like Windows 7 finally delivers the feature we have been asking for for years. The ability to uninstall IE.

1.) IMHO no troll's but an opinion skeptical of certain institutional interference.

2.) Nice to hear that!

p.s. IMHO the ability to uninstall IE shell was always present; MS merely denied that You could uninstall and by default hid IE's uninstalling menu item from end users.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2009 10:57AM by guenter.

It's like requiring BMW to put Porsche parts in every BMW built. If the company wants to do it, fine, but don't require it.

Quote
bill
It's like requiring BMW to put Porsche parts in every BMW built.

MS is bundling software with OS.
It does with a player, a browser, a flash competitor...

Look how MS got prime market position during the browser wars. They ruined their competitors by giving their product (IE) away for free.

First there is MS software that is initially cross subsidized by selling OS.
Finally without competition You may find there is only MS software.
& You suddenly pay more.

ps. If BMW had a monopoly for cars and also made radios, and then bundled their radios with their cars to exclude everyone elses radios, ruining all radio brands?

Think about this situation.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/08/2009 07:11PM by guenter.

Quote
bill
It's like requiring BMW to put Porsche parts in every BMW built. If the company wants to do it, fine, but don't require it.

why not.. perhaps BMW owners would prefer a better engine and maybe porsche drivers want superior engines too

but seriously.. actually all cars manufacturers do use parts in their products from other manufacturers because one company is better at something than the other and for cost-effectiveness reasons as well, those are called suppliers and all automotive manufacturers need them.. only one car company in the world can claim that it doesn't rely on others, but then again this company belongs to a keiretsu of around 180 subsidiaries..

Quote
guenter
Look how MS got prime market position during the browser wars. They ruined their competitors by giving their product (IE) away for free.

1. Firefox, Opera, Chrome, K-Meleon, any other are also free and there's no any restrictions to install them and use as primary browser. Users' ignorance about alternative browsers isn't a Microsoft's headache, but rather a browsers developers' one.
2. Notepad, WordPad, WMP, Paint, MovieMaker, Disk Burning Wizard are also free and they're also included in Windows. Microsoft provides its consumers with OS which is not only a bare kernel, but with some basic functionality included. People who satisfied with this functionality use the built-in programs. Others are free to install any third-party software they like.
This is not monopoly but providing ready-to-work system to customers, and if some developers want users to use their programs instead of Microsoft's ones - well, make users know about them and their advantages.
It's ridiculous to force MS to include any third-party software in THEIR OS, it's just like forcing Linux distros developers to include GNOME, KDE, xfce, FluxBox, xmonad etc at the same time because "otherwise, users might not know about all the alternatives available".

@ AirSpirit,

I agree that MS can do so for most things.

The point with certain apps is that providing them with a monopolist OS gives You:

a head start at music market, if You have a monopoly on the shipped player.

the search engines market also, if you have a monopoly on the shipped browser.

Seems it is also a political pref, the EC citizens posting liked more choice



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/09/2009 08:11PM by guenter.

@ AirSpirit:

I'm disagree with you. Micro$oft Windows with IE is a monopoly because first in Windows installation don't ask me about if i like install it and second IE is part of OS and as consecuence I can't uninstall it (I haven't this option).
Therefore Micro$oft obliges me to have software installed that I don't want.
This not happend with others utilities included in Windows, where I can select in installation options if I like install it or not; Notepad, WordPad, WMP, Paint, MovieMaker, Disk Burning Wizard, ...

Your car brand can't obliges you to use his brand of car-oil or car-radio in your car.
Only can recomended you or provide his brand by default but he must give you the possibility to change by other.

K-Meleon in Spanish

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desga2
I'm disagree with you. Micro$oft Windows with IE is a monopoly because first in Windows installation don't ask me about if i like install it and second IE is part of OS and as consecuence I can't uninstall it (I haven't this option).
Therefore Micro$oft obliges me to have software installed that I don't want.

Then you should try Gentoo. I don't know any other OS'es which let you choose every things to be installed or not (you don't like IE to be installed, someone else don't like WMP,.. there'll always be a man who'll say "it doesn't suit me"). There're also some programs such as nLite which can help you.
You can't uninstall IE because it's integral part of the older versions of Windows itself (for example, WinUpdate works only with it). However, starting from windows 7 you can uninstall IE completely http://blog.taragana.com/index.php/archive/how-to-remove-ie-8-from-windows-7-completely/
so you'll be satisfied.
Also if it's a so big trouble for you to have a 20mb of disk space used for IE, you're free to use another OS, which can be tweaked as you want (and there you'll have to do it ).
So, you can do almost everything if you want to. A huge number of users can't be fully satisfied simultaneously without loosing simplicity which is one of the major Windows features. Bloating standard Windows distrib with numerous third-party programs is a real bad idea.

@ AirSpirit,
You would only do it for apps that open up new markets like player and browser.

Or totally disallow autoinstalling shipment, which would reduce bloat on HDD.

p.s. You need part of IE trident engine - but You are also forced to keep IE shell.
But You can also update using nlite

@ AirSpirit:

Note this in your posted link:

Quote
How to remove IE8 from Windows 7 ...
(...)
In Windows 7 build 7048, thankfully there is a feature by which you can remove IE 8.
(...)
I just hope that Microsoft will be sane enough to keep this feature active for the final version too. What do you think?

This build (7048 also named pre RC or RC1) version is the last Beta build and it isn't for download. (It isn't the Beta build version released by Micro$oft (build 7000) and not more available for download)

I'm sure that my next system is a linux based system because i don't like download a Windows DVD (2.5 G for my OS. I think that if an OS cann't stored in a single CD isn't a good OS. Almost I don't have a hardware power needed to install Vista (I hate Vista a little more than XP ) and Windows 7 needed the same requeriments.

But searching a litle with Google I found this build filtered and downloabled by torrent: (If someone like test it)
Download Windows 7 Build 7048 32-bit x86 (RC1) torrent DVD: Direct link and RapidShare and Megaupload (web page in Spanish)
Beta Product key: 4HJRK-X6Q28-HWRFY-WDYHJ-K8HDH

Also i read that this version is downloabled from Microsoft Connect. (need registration)

The released by Microsoft to Windows 7 RC is for April 10.

And I read that Firefox don't like to be included in Windows 7 package.
I think that Windows 7 not will included any other browser, but at least now you can uninstall IE and select if you like install IE 8 with Windows 7.
This can be sufficent to pass EU "anti-monopoly" requeriments.

K-Meleon in Spanish



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2009 11:39AM by desga2.

@ BenoitRen
"punishing illegal monopolies"

When it comes right down to brass tacks, it was consumers that made MS a so-called monopoly. And as for the fines, it isn't really MS who pays them, but rather us conumers. We consumers made a personal choice to buy Windows. Sometimes government just use big businesses as money pits. One way or another, governments are going to take our hard earned money so they can spend it irresponsably like drunken sailors, oh! thats right, drunken sailors spend their own money. Sorry drunken sailors. But I think the point is a legitimate one. BTW, who actually complained about IE having been bundled with Windows? The only entity I recall accutally complaining about it where EU officails. If some one does not want to use IE, for years there have been many alternatives.

Charlie

~~If it ain't broke, why screw it up?~~

Immagine installing a brand new OS only to find you have no way to surf the net unless you already have an alternative available.

Charlie

~~If it ain't broke, why screw it up?~~

Charlie, I share You skepticism but the EC represents European PPL politically.
There was a democratic decision - it is enforcement of laws and regulations now.

p.s. Main arguments IMHO wrong.

Example, Windows made its way when it was only a GUI to several DOSes and also OS/2. Then MS intentionally made Win95 incompatible to all other better DOSes. Novel even got compensation.

When IBM brought out OS/2 version 4, a better windowed GUI, MS countered with vapor ware and later by making Windows95 incompatible to OS/2 also.

When MS finally shipped Win95 it was fault prone. Every 3 months Win95 needed a new install. MS had contracts with PC manufactures. There were better DOS GUIs e.g. Geos. If end users had known that at the time...

IMHO "trickery" was involved to get todays market share & not customers choice.

BTW. I still remember: I was user of Novel & PTS DOS and Windows 3.X GUI and later OS/2 that could use its own and Win3.x GUI.


The argument that customers pay the fines is void.

It is not the EC regulators that cause the fines but MS policy that cost the consumers this money.

MS must comply with EC laws &regulation when they want to do business in the EC.
MS must even comply if this bundling is legal in the US and illegal in the EC.

Fining a monopolist that takes exaggerated prices and uses these profits to cross subsidize the push into new markets is no bad idea, since it intends to prevent further monopolization.

Only trying prevent an MS attempt to extend the monopolies is any good, since MS does not need to cross finance that any more & can sell OS cheaper



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2009 09:59AM by guenter.

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caktus
Immagine installing a brand new OS only to find you have no way to surf the net unless you already have an alternative available.

Quote
desga2
EU says M$ must offer other browsers in Windows 7.

Why not offer Micro$oft K-Meleon in Windows 7?

@desga2
Win7 works better and faster even on old hardware, according to users' reports (someone says it works faster than XP sometimes ). I also try it in VirtualBox, and W7 works pretty good. Also Windows Mail, Movie maker and smth else are now included in Windows Live Essentials and aren't preinstalled, but should be downloaded and installed manually. So MS really trying to meet the interests of people who don't want default MS programs to be installed. I'm on XPSP3 now and I think W7 will be my next system.
Well, option to uninstall IE appeared only in latest build (RC1) available, but its presence is a good sign anyway
Linux hasn't K-Meleon and it's sad (so called "linux version" for wine looks very ugly, generates over 9000 exceptions and crashes), this is one of the number of reasons stopping me from using it in my everyday life (I have the ArchLinux installed on VirtualBox).

I think I'll try to install one of the BSDs before the world ends on 2012. I don't suppose there is a K-Meleon version that will run on BSD?

@ AirSpirit:

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AirSpirit
Linux hasn't K-Meleon ...

Linux hasn't K-Meleon YET, Linux is a big world full of posibilities.
You can start with Epiphany like a base and modify it to seems more to K-Meleon.
If K-Meleon not exist in Linux we can and will have create it.
When I see to the future, I can see K-Meleon build and run in Linux systems with WebKit engine, like Epiphany.

K-Meleon in Spanish

I use 1.5.2 Official under Ubuntu 8.10 with wine 1.xx

I have some crashes (K-Meleon diseappear) I agree it's annoying, but I continue to use it.:cool:

I don't know (I'm not a programmer) if it would be possible to change the compiler, and use a compiler which exists also under Linux (and perhaps Mac), but I think it would to be a future to K-Meleon under Linux.

For now, I use it with a relative comfort. Some extensions can't work under Linux.

And I never will return under Windows (Just XP at work, and exceptionnaly elsewhere), and never will use Windows 7.

I read for a virtualization product, and a guy has installed Windows 7 in an image. It's really impressive the ports opened and use by the system to send information. Even Microsoft has mis de l'eau dans son vin, he doesn't loose his bad methods to collect info without asking us. No, I will never use it.

I'm definitively lost for Windows
A+

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Mozilla/5.0 (x11; U; Linux x86_64; fr-FR; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Ubuntu/12.04 K-Meleon/76.0

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Web: http://jujuland.pagesperso-orange.fr/
Mail : alain [dot] aupeix [at] wanadoo [dot] fr

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Ubuntu 12.04 - Gramps 3.4.9 - Harbour 3.2.0 - Hwgui 2.20-3 - K-Meleon 76.0 rc

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/10/2009 05:57PM by JujuLand.

I understand your sentiments, but regardless a fine, legal fees or an executive vacation, it is always us consumers who get screwed - er - a - foot the bill.

Charlie

~~If it ain't broke, why screw it up?~~

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desga2
Epiphany

Actually, this is the best browser for GTK+ available, but in comparison with K-Meleon it's not good - very poor functionality and lack of settings. Maybe one day I'll reinstall Arch (because X.org became very slow and KDE doesn't want to work), and try Konqueror

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JujuLand
I don't know (I'm not a programmer) if it would be possible to change the compiler, and use a compiler which exists also under Linux (and perhaps Mac), but I think it would to be a future to K-Meleon under Linux.

K-Meleon uses native Win32 API and it can't be easily ported to Linux by simply changing the compiler. Using WinAPI instead of platform-independent XUL (as Firefox do) gives K-Meleon its speed.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/11/2009 04:42PM by AirSpirit.