Let's speak here about all this stuff.

To continue about RT, RI etc.
Well, I understand you, Yogi and Carson. The biggest catch used by RT and other Kremlin propaganda is using considerations you mentioned: all the media are liars, and everyone needs to check different-side opinions.

The problem is that RT and RI (like any other government-controlled media in Russia) couldn't be supposed as valid info-source at all.

Even when their materials are based on some reality - they are frequently perverted almost fully.
I know that it's very difficult to form your own opinion about things occuring distantly from you. But you can judge things that surround you.

Being russian I can assure you: all the RT and RI-stuff is real bullshit. This isn't 'another point of view'. It's just irrelevant.

Kremlin is going to revert Russia back to the USSR. I lived there. No, thanks ;-)
All that RTs are just the ghosts from 'cold war' times. They are inspired and controlled by former KGB (no secret that almost all the authorities here in Russia are under control of former intelligence services descendants).

These guys do know how to lie and how to control minds. They use methods, developed in 1930-40-th as well as modern communication and social techs.

Don't regard them as fair players. You think your media lies? You're right!
Multiply this at 3 - and you'll get right account for RT.

Yes I see Your point. I totally agree about the school of missinfo prevalent in Your region but that is not the only and not the globally dominant school.

Western media also spread missinfo when something is politically essential.

Especially the English speaking nations of the 5 eyes are untrue in their egotistic war propaganda. Not all what they call democratic or human is ... The 5 eyes nations have their tradition of war, pre and post war-time lying that was well developed and refined even before the Mother Russia turned communist. And it was refined ever since. Their actions contradict their words as much and more as those of the Russian school of propaganda started by the SOVIETs.

Yeast. You got to compare information and their sources.
Subtract each hidden agenda that You find.

p.s. I am a conservative, a capitalist and I was brought up as a democrat...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 09:06PM by guenter.

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rodocop
These guys do know how to lie and how to control minds. They use methods, developed in 1930-40-th as well as modern communication and social techs.

Speaking of methods developed in 1930-40-th - do you know who the real propaganda masters of those decades were?
BTW, those methods are still in use...

=====

"Warum schweigen die Lämmer" by Dr. Rainer Mausfeld, a presentation about Western democracy, psychology and indignation management.
Sorry, it is in German, so not very appropriate for this thread.
At least it might be of interest for the few German speaking members of these forums.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/15/2015 09:45PM by Yogi.

In 20-30-th USSR and Germany (both Weimarer and Nazys) were more likely allies than we use to think of.

Most methods were not only shared between them but also generated in their 'joint venture'.

And nowadays we, russians, feel almost like germans-1933-1945. There is an infinite approximation to Nazys in what Kremlin does say and what does it do.

Sometime it looks just like farce, but another moment you feel like in real nightmare.

An example: if (just imagine) we'll decide to register some joint enterprise to work on our browser - the next day I'll ran at risk of being persecuted as 'Nationalverräter'.

Sad to say, this is reality of 'modern' Russia...

Hitler and Stalin, allies? What next? Friends?
Do you know how "germans-1933-1945" felt? I'm asking because I don't.
Furthermore, do you also know about the reasons why "germans-1933-1945" felt however they felt?
I mean, are you aware about the geopolitical and economic constellation of that decade?

There is no need for much imagination.
I could come up with a concretely example.
Opera Presto was the only mainstream browser the NSA had little access to its source code.
It was blackballed by main internet players till brought to their knees. RIP Opera.

As for a joint browser enterprise, AFAIK there was/is one. Yandex - Chropera (Opera Blink).

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Yogi

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rodocop
These guys do know how to lie and how to control minds. They use methods, developed in 1930-40-th as well as modern communication and social techs.

Speaking of methods developed in 1930-40-th - do you know who the real propaganda masters of those decades were?
BTW, those methods are still in use...

=====

"Warum schweigen die Lämmer" by Dr. Rainer Mausfeld, a presentation about Western democracy, psychology and indignation management.
Sorry, it is in German, so not very appropriate for this thread.
At least it might be of interest for the few German speaking members of these forums.

Well, Mausfeld's comments contains enough English quotes to follow it a little.
In German his portray is outstanding, sharp, pointed. Its about the Western school of mind manipulation and about who he thinks is benefiting.

Mausfeld is politically left and mourns a lack of influence of the ordinary people - who he thinks are left too. Of cause I do not agree in this marginal point - I am conservative.

If You read the Western information school's repetitive commentary/reporting (repeating certain facts neglecting others) about the beginnings of the Syrian conflict and other current problems You understand the disinformatory design better - after listing to Mausfeld's lecture. The same can be said about other schools. They copy each other. The one with the widest reach in public wins.

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rodocop
And nowadays we, russians, feel almost like germans-1933-1945. There is an infinite approximation to Nazys in what Kremlin does say and what does it do.

Sometime it looks just like farce, but another moment you feel like in real nightmare.

Yes I can understand the sentiment and feelings. But then I studied history and such topics at the university level. Yogi, You can recreate such feelings when You read the accounts of "Zeitzeugen" (witness of a time period). Especially dissenters.

But rodocop, I cannot compare current Russia with the intentions of the Fascists.

Russia is still a young democracy and the "bear" feels cornered by interests that serve mostly the 5 eyes way of capitalism and hegemonial policy. The main Western actors in the not so recent past did not do enough to prevent this growth of distrust. And now we all have a problem. And yes rodocop, I heard about the risks of allegedly dissenting when national interests are said to be in danger.

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Yogi
Hitler and Stalin, allies? What next? Friends?
...

There is no need for much imagination.
I could come up with a concretely example.
Opera Presto was the only mainstream browser the NSA had little access to its source code.
It was blackballed by main internet players till brought to their knees. RIP Opera.

As for a joint browser enterprise, AFAIK there was/is one. Yandex - Chropera (Opera Blink).

Iwan Michailowitsch Maiski, "Wer half Hitler", seems to claim that the Western propaganda influenced/caused Hitler's descision to attack Russia.

Opera is IMHO a better example.

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guenter
Yes I can understand the sentiment and feelings. But then I studied history and such topics at the university level. Yogi, You can recreate such feelings when You read the accounts of "Zeitzeugen" (witness of a time period). Especially dissenters.

I hardly can imagine that you can, no matter how much you have studied or how much books you have read.
For sure it can be of help for better understanding but it's impossible to recreate authentic feelings of the time.
E.g. you can watch several war movies and still you can't experience the feelings of a soldier on the front line.
Besides, there is the psychology of the masses. As an experiment you would need to be part of those masses to be able to experience the same feelings.

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guenter
Iwan Michailowitsch Maiski, "Wer half Hitler",

You still can find some references on the internet for foreign help.
This doesn't come as a surprise since there was nothing corporate elites were more afraid of than bolshevism.
Therefore many of them sympathized with Hitler. Also less known e.g. is the failed fascist coup in the USA.

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Yogi

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guenter
Yes I can understand the sentiment and feelings. But then I studied history and such topics at the university level. Yogi, You can recreate such feelings when You read the accounts of "Zeitzeugen" (witness of a time period). Especially dissenters.

I hardly can imagine that you can, no matter how much you have studied or how much books you have read.
For sure it can be of help for better understanding but it's impossible to recreate authentic feelings of the time.
E.g. you can watch several war movies and still you can't experience the feelings of a soldier on the front line.
Besides, there is the psychology of the masses. As an experiment you would need to be part of those masses to be able to experience the same feelings.

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guenter
Iwan Michailowitsch Maiski, "Wer half Hitler",

You still can find some references on the internet for foreign help.
This doesn't come as a surprise since there was nothing corporate elites were more afraid of than bolshevism.
Therefore many of them sympathized with Hitler. Also less known e.g. is the failed fascist coup in the USA.

"Media and propaganda against truth" is not just about the current period but also the past - which is instrumentalized for propaganda.

The techniques to do so are much the same in both cases. The training that a e.g. a history student gets to see through past myths can help with the present media issue.

I am old enough and took the chances to listen to some interesting people (Zeitzeugen) that I met. Good narrators and books are IMHO more vivid than a movie. Some individuals and nations read and listen more than others. So I hope that I can understand what rodocop means.

I was not so interested in feelings of a soldier in a ditch but of his motivations, situations and such. A competent narrator can pass to You his past kick of fighting adrenaline nonetheless.

"Im Westen nichts Neues" and "Der abenteuerliche Simplicissimus Teutsch" are read for some reason in school. IMHO to give a glimpse into German past.

Yes. AFAIK Fascism and Anti-Bolshevism were widely spread in the 30ies - not just in Italy or Germany. Not only the economic elites shared these sentiments. And all people and levels of society are good with denying afterwords. Reading of the "The Gulag Archipelago" still tells us some of the reasons - why Bolshevism had to be fought.

Yes Yogi. The net is full of information about the past and present realities and hidden agenda - We only need to learn some of the techniques to find and filter it.

p.s. Being part of a browser community helps to meet people from other nations and to work for a common goal helps to be together as friends usually.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/16/2015 10:17AM by guenter.

Russia isn't a democracy anymore, guenter, sorry.

We have nor real freedom of speech, media neither independent judgement system. Even the constitution itself could be broken (and IS broken already) without any needed legitimate procedure.

I know it's hard to believe but all we have is a big Die Stasi, big KGB network, which infiltrated every sphere of state activity.

This isn't like old KGB which serves for ideology. This new one serves only for the benefication of its members.

They do graze all the herd, allowing us to grow only for some extent. But then they start takeaway, confiscation, robbery - like in the case of Yukos.

They don't intend to be like Nazis - feel free to live in Russia under unwritten rules or leave. Goodbye, darling. But can't stay and fight.
Don't even think about independent politician career.
Don't even think to say the truth.

There is though no real iron curtain even in media field - Kremlin simply gets all the generally accessible TV under its control and creates fake reality for all that majority which isn't used to have critical thinking. So they believe in what they hear even more than in what they see around.

When we read some personal reminiscences or documental evidences from both Germany or USSR of 30-th we are horrified to how it looks like Russia Today. Not TV-channel RT but Russia itself.
With all differences mentioned - but in general we do have real fascist regime:
forced unanimity, repressions for dissenters, propaganda of war and agressive power expansion as well as ultranationalizm, dehumanization of 'enemies', etc.

We are learned that Russia is surrounded by enemies, fascists, etc. - and they are americans, ukrainians, 'gayropeans' (so they called this Sodomic and Gomorrean continent - Gayrope!). I'm not fooling you - this is our reality today...

Last monthes all insiders confirm again and again that frau Merkel's words about 'Vladimir Putin living in his own reality' were an absolutely precise description not a metaphor...

Our top-elite is though divided to 'hardcore imperians' like Putin and company and 'pragmatics' where the latters do not the full breakage, disconnetion from all the world. But too much power is concentrated in the 'chekists'-hands...

It's hard to argue with someone who lives there. It's your own experience and the way you feel about it, no matter if you are only part of a minority who feels so.
On the other side, it's a fact that Putin is more popular at home than any other Western leader. You don't have to tell us why but you could just ask for yourself.

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rodocop
robbery - like in the case of Yukos.

When the robber got robbed.

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rodocop
We are learned that Russia is surrounded by enemies, fascists, etc.

You seem to ignore the permanently encreasing number of NATO bases and military drills along your Western borders. Do you think they are aimed for Iran and North Korea?
Wonder if you've ever read Zbigniew Brzezinski. You better should. His doctrine is more actual than ever. It might help you to get the picture.

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rodocop
Last monthes all insiders confirm again and again that frau Merkel's words about 'Vladimir Putin living in his own reality' were an absolutely precise description not a metaphor...

Have you ever asked yourself since when confidential phone calls between statesmen are subject of headlines in mass media?
Think about it. Free Western media or subtle propaganda - make your choice.

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Yogi
it's a fact that Putin is more popular at home than any other Western leader. You don't have to tell us why but you could just ask for yourself.

Yes. And so Hitler was. (Also Stalin, Mao, North Korean Kims etc.)

No leader in real democracy could have such a rating about 90%.

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Yogi
When the robber got robbed.

There are number of such a robbers here - no one was arrested since they keep under 'the rules' - not laws.

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Yogi
You seem to ignore the permanently encreasing number of NATO bases and military drills along your Western borders.

You speak like perfect russian 'empire patriot'

Well, I grew up in all that Soviet atmosphere of cold war, where we are learned NATO is devil on the Earth.
Soviet people hated americans at the almost the same level as Nazis.
Nowadays 'we' hate them more than Nazis.

But it was USSR itself who made a great contribution in all that confrontation and suspense between East and West. It was commie's USSR who announced the World Revolution which in fact should be the World conquest.

It takes too much time even for me to make myself see another point of view.
Well, 10-15 years ago it was seriously discussed that Russia could join NATO.

All the politics of new Russia were at start aimed to the open world and partnership so NATO wasn't the enemy. Why to battle against Russia if it isn't an enemy.

In 1945 Germany was the enemy of USA-Britain axis but after the WW II their weapon weren't targeted to Germany as it became an ally. That should be the right way for modern Russia too.

I may be wrong in your inner case from here, but it seems that the only thing that helped the denazification to be successful - was the external control by western allies (USA and Britain primarily).
The same went for Japan and, for example, South Korea.

The joke says: "Why USA are welcome to poach in other сountry's business and Russia - isn't? Because USA produce South Korea and Russia - North one."

Well, after all I'm comparatively familiar with Zbignev's concept. But can you say the same about the real Putin's (and his fellows) one?

Not all that dust-in-the-eyes shit he said first 10 years of his power. The real KGB-doctrine?

I'll better choose the worst of Brzezinski ;-)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/26/2015 08:41PM by rodocop.

Once again - it's briilliant possibility for people from different countries to make joint effort in solving of different tasks and problems.

Like we do here with K-Meleon.

It's the most right way for humanity being what I can see.


Modern russian (KG politics is adamantly rejecting this. That's the main point why I'm against.

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rodocop
I'll better choose the worst of Brzezinski ;-)

Good luck with that dear Russian friend!
May the Brzezinski doctrine bring you democracy and the wealth you are seeking for.

We are too far from any other doctrine than KGB's one nowadays :cool:

I guess you are young (more or less) guys.

Only this,

http://www.americandeception.com/

http://www.deliberatedumbingdown.com/