I don't know if this has been discuss already or not. Are there any plans for trying to get a future version of K-Meleon which uses Gecko 1.9.1 running natively on Win9x ? I did some research and it seems like it should be doable without too much effort.

The following functions are used by Gecko. These functions are all supported by MSLU (unicows). Note there are probably other Win32 Unicode functions used as well.

* DispatchMessageW
* GetMonitorInfoW
* GetOpenFileNameW
* GetSaveFileNameW
* GetWindowLongW
* PeekMessageW
* SetWindowLongW
* SHBrowseForFolderW
* SHGetPathFromIDListW

The following functions are used by Cairo and Thebes (Mozilla wrapper around Cairo).

* GdiFlush
* GetGlyphIndicesA
* GetGlyphIndicesW
* GetWorldTransform
* ModifyWorldTransform
* SetWorldTransform
* GetGraphicsMode (supported in Win9x but GM_ADVANCED is returned in Win2000+ only)
* SetGraphicsMode (supported in Win9x but GM_ADVANCED parameter is Win2000+ only)

Interestingly there is already some support in the code for WinCE (probably for the Fennec mobile browser) which doesn't support these functions either. There's a file for WinCE which defines stubs for the second set of functions (except for GetGlyphIndices) and redefines GM_ADVANCED so things will build - http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla1.9.1/source/gfx/cairo/wince-fixes.patch
There's also code to handle GetGlyphIndices but without any character validation -
http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/build/wince/shunt/win32.cpp#850

Gecko 1.8.1 (SeaMonkey 1.1) has its own GetGlyphIndices function which is not API compatible with the Win2000+ function but could probably be reworked to match.

I suspect it wouldn't be too much effort to make Gecko 1.9.1 to work under Win9x:
- A patch much like the one for WinCE to supply stubs for Win2000+ functions used by Cairo and Thebes.
- Code in an #if (WINVER >= 0x400 && WINVER < 0x500) block to handle GetGlyphIndicesA and GetGlyphIndicesW. There's already shunt code in the tree to do this for WinCE which could be expanded upon later if needed.
- Build to use MSLU which would have no effect on Win2000 or later but would allow Win9x support as long as unicows.dll is present.

One catch-22 is that it seems you need MSVC 7.1+ to build things which of course doesn't run on Win9x. MSVC 6.0 is the last version that runs on Win9x.

AFAIK it has not been discussed in detail. Except that some here regretted that it looks impossible. K-Meleon.exe exists in a 9.x version (that has some limits).
You can extract it from the installers.

Building with free Toolz.

The GRE can be build with free Tools. But probably not under WinME or earlier 9.x.
.Net 1.1 SDk and free Toolkit 2003 do not install. It looks as if cl.exe does work. cl /? > .cl.txt 2>&1 btw. link run from bat on a WinMe system do create the explanations of params. Maybe these prerequisites could work/compile when some .Net 1.1 SDK files are copied there too?

There is a chance that K-Meleon.exe can be build inside a Mozilla Source tree.
It starts to build but I lack the know how to fix any errors.
When I comment out about.cpp it goes quite far - picture.

But it dies in the end. I was able to build mfcembed.exe.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/08/2009 10:15PM by guenter.

I installed Firefox 3 using a kernel under w98se. Would that be the same task involved? if so I can link the kernel




Reeko

asmpgmr

wow....truly a voice from the past.:O

Quote
reeko124
I installed Firefox 3 using a kernel under w98se. Would that be the same task involved? if so I can link the kernel

If Firefox 3 worked K-Meleon could worked, Gecko is Gecko.

K-Meleon in Spanish

Quote
reeko124
I installed Firefox 3 using a kernel under w98se.

Would that be the same task involved?
if so I can link the kernel

1.) You mean that You used a "helper" to run a Cairo Graphic Toolkit version?
IMHO that could be good news. Maybe Dorian has time to keep the 9.x.Kmeleon in shape for 1.9.x. GREs

2.) Do not know either - but all info I read assumed that lacking Cairo support is the killer for the 9.win systems. Could that mean that 2 possible solutions exist?

3.) nice.

@ asmpgmr welcome back here // I tried whether cl.&link.exe may work.

4.) WinME used to build a sample with Toolkit 2003




The only thing that did not work was writing the event log.
Unlike XP, 2000 it can also not execute bold command - You'd need a substitute:

cl /clr framework.cpp > .GRE_build.log 2>&1

p.s. The WinMe compiled sample does the same as the XP compiled version of the test app. did.

It serves to show the old price of the full commercial package - or whatever

You can still find the Toolkit 2003 package on University and other servers.
Apart from the fact that since K-Meleon @ SF as developing community is something like an university/company and can probably legally share Toolkit 2003.

Xona has still current info about Toolkit 2003 and AFAIK about using its cl.exe with other environments like VC 6.

Some Xona posts about Toolkit are recent.

---

Question: does any know a program that helps me to check/record what .Net 1.1 SDK files or other files (besides mozilla-build toolz) are used when I build an 1.9.x GRE with XP?

thx for reading my post.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2009 11:09AM by guenter.

MSFN Windows 98se Member Projects KernelEX

I can help a little if you have questions.Its been awhile since I lost the computer in a fire in August of last year. Check out all the other things that people have made there its amazing the time and effort put in by them.

My post is about building a version of K-Meleon (1.6 ?) which uses the upcoming Gecko 1.9.1 rendering engine (Firefox 3.5 / SeaMonkey 2.0) that runs natively on an unmodified Win9x system. KernelEx modifies Win9x and can cause issues with some apps. Re-read my post but to summarize what I think will get this working is as follows:

Build Cairo with a Win9x patch similar to the one used for WinCE that stubs out several Win2000+ specific functions - http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla1.9.1/source/gfx/cairo/wince-fixes.patch

Define stub functions for Win2000+ specific functions (like GetGlyphIndicesA and GetGlyphIndicesW) used by Gecko toolkit and any other components similar to what is done for WinCE here - http://mxr.mozilla.org/seamonkey/source/build/wince/shunt/win32.cpp

Add MSLU (unicows.lib) to the link so that unicows.dll will be used on Win9x for any Unicode functions (generally functions that end with W instead of A)

1.) Yes, Dorians build version = 1.6, Hao prefers 1.5.2.

Understand Your reason better now. Lots of crashes. My Me is past .
I will dispose the rests and use C:/ for Reactos.

2.) I have a GRE Build environment based on Toolkit 2003 working on XP,
maybe that is enough?
.
They build optimized Firefox with it some years ago.

Maybe have a look on the Xona download links?
Hope info about cl and link are usefull.

p.s. If I can help I will do so (or at least try).
IMHO the new script engine is the major imrovement.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 06/09/2009 08:37PM by guenter.

I did a Dependency Walker run against the Gecko 1.9.1 DLLs (from SeaMonkey 2.0a3) and found the following Win2000+ API dependencies:

THEBES.DLL (from GDI32.DLL)
* AddFontMemResourceEx
* GetFontUnicodeRanges
* GetGlyphIndicesA
* GetGlyphIndicesW
* GetTextExtentExPointI
* RemoveFontMemResourceEx

GKWIDGET.DLL (from USER32.DLL)
* GetLastInputInfo - this is used to get idle time
* UpdateLayeredWindow - this is used for alpha blending in a translucent window

Interestingly Win9x actually supports GetWorldTransform, ModifyWorldTransform and SetWorldTransform though they're only documented for Win2000+. These functions are definitely in the name table of GDI32.DLL on Win98SE.

Also Win9x supports GetGraphicsMode and SetGraphicsMode but the GM_ADVANCED parameter is not supported (that's Win2000+).

Stubs or replacement code would have to be provided for all of the unsupported functions or functions which use unsupported parameters.

ok so is anyone going to develop a K-Meleon version for Windows ME(millenium) that supports HTML5 and also the YouTube html5 video tag(http://www.youtube.com/html5)

So far I'm a bit optimistic HTML5 will run on 98se with KernelEx, since KM 1.6 runs already for me there and HTML5 is guess included in the gecko 1.9, but will see after getting a test page some day :cool: At the current moment see no need yet for HTML5...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2010 07:34AM by siria.

Manpower is IMHO the limiting factor. I told You before. asmpgmr stopped helping & contributing 6 years ago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2010 11:57AM by guenter.

Quote
guenter
Manpower is IMHO the limiting factor. I told You before. asmpgmr stopped helping & contributing 6 years ago.

Guenter,

Well, it is not as though people haven't gone away and come back before in the K-Meleon community. <shrug>

And it would be nice if KM 1.6 worked with W98se. I know, I know, the market share is down a lot, but it is probably the most used OS outside of XP in Windows... unless you count all those cash register programs across the world that work in (GASP) DOS!

<VBG>

N



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2010 12:32PM by ndebord.

Quote
ndebord

Well, it is not as though people haven't gone away and come back before in the K-Meleon community. <shrug>

And it would be nice if KM 1.6 worked with W98se. I know, I know, the market share is down a lot, but it is probably the most used OS outside of XP in Windows...

1.) No doubt. But no dev excpet jsnj has returned.

I could recompile a GRE with changes if I had the recipe. I have the tool chain installed but no idea to build what asmpgmr has in mind = how to do it.

2.) You overestimate user size of win9x. There are millions but statistically they are few.

p.s. Just as much as these statistics data possibly underestimate the number and share. All relevant pages that are part of statistics bar win9x users from service.

Bared users have to use alternative browsers that can fake OS info in the browser string ( I doubt that any number of users hacks registry to fake IE's agent info ).

You can easily check my idea if You spoof win9's on yahoo's new mail.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2010 12:56PM by guenter.

guenter,

Yes, jsnj is back. <VBG> K-Meleon has always been a pet project kind of thing. Maybe, someday, the idea that a macro scripting language is a better idea than XUL/XPI might occur to some venture capitalist and they'll toss a pot of money KM's way. But I wouldn't hold my breath.

As for W98x, the stars are clearly unreliable, as you said and I made the move to XP some 2 years ago now, so...

N

Quote
ndebord
...worked with W98se. I know, I know, the market share is down a lot, but it is probably the most used OS outside of XP in Windows

You are obviously joking, or are seriously deluded, or are purposefully trying to propagate outright incorrect info.

The most used Windows OS outside of XP is either Windows 7 or Vista. Probably Windows 7 now as its numbers seriously picked up in the last couple of months.

As for W98x, ndebord's opinion of its usage is clearly unreliable.....

Or rather, ndebord said "As for W98x, the stats are clearly unreliable". I'm sorry, but it certainly is not clear to me why.

ndebord, could you please elaborate why the stats seem so clearly unreliable to you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2010 07:07AM by bksening.

@ bksening,

OS is part of the UserAgentString a browser sends to every page.

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.23) Gecko/20091019

Quote
guenter

You can easily check my idea if You spoof win9's on yahoo's new mail.

Change to a win 9x based browser string and test Yourself.
Changed in: Tools -> User Agent -> Custom

ndebord knows what happens - he has been 9x user until two years or so ago.


The result? yahoo guides You to an error page - where they tell You that they do not support Your OS and ask You to upgrade.

Other much used pages do the same.

The crux: these popular pages are used for usage statistics.


The effect: win 9x or K-Meleon (which is barred in the same way at yahoo new mail) will not appear in usage statistics of these pages.

This makes usage statistics unreliable for the pages that do it.

Many PPL do not change their browser's AgentString back to normal when they leave such pages. It is extra effort

And this makes usage statistics unreliable for all pages visited after the switch.

They all pass their wrong info on to statistic collections.

Sorry that my first post was too short to understand

BTW. My private estimate: 9x is still used more than win2000 and Server2003 - PPL that only have the old hard and software and others that use it as backup system. Win9x machines start faster - the system of choice if You just want to check mail and last forum posts. & that is how I used my ME until about one year ago.

p.s. Bottom § in the post - but it works the same for OSes.

For K-Meleon Autoswitcher extension was created so that users do not have to switch manually.

Two ups: 1. useful presets and 2. K-Meleon is among and will hopefully stay among the 10 most used browsers in Europe.

Because of this extension & users that have it: K-Meleon leaves a more reliable footprint in statistics because this extension switches back for pages that are ok to know its true identity.

Thx disrupted



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2010 05:46PM by guenter.

Actually, the crux is: no number of specialized user-agent spoofers, no matter if they change the user-agent or not or remember to reset the user-agent back or not, is even remotely close enough to making any significant difference for the OS usage statistics.

@guenter, are you also so seriously deluded to actually think that there are enough Win 9x user-agent spoofers to actually make a statistical difference, enough to make the stats unreliable? Of course not! Many, many more people do not change their user-agent string at all!

My private estimate is that Win2000 and Win2003 are used way way way more than 9x. It seems like (the not that many) KM people are the only ones who still have the old software. Even most people with old hardware are using Win2000 or XP.

Win 9x machines do not start significantly faster, and the system of choice if you want to just check mail and last forum posts would be WinXP Classic mode or at oldest Win2000.

And besides, nothing in your post has provided any details or info that could clarify my question to ndebord. I maintain that the most used Windows OS outside of XP is either Windows 7 or Vista, while ndebord says it is Win98se (or I will even give him all the Win 9x's taken together). There is still no convincing proof other than both of your personal opinions that the stats are unreliable and that somehow, somewhere there are hidden enclaves with droves of users running Win9x.......

Quote
bksening
Actually, the crux is: no number of specialized user-agent spoofers, no matter if they change the user-agent or not or remember to reset the user-agent back or not, is even remotely close enough to making any significant difference for the OS usage statistics.

@guenter, are you also so seriously deluded to actually think that there are enough Win 9x user-agent spoofers to actually make a statistical difference, enough to make the stats unreliable? Of course not! Many, many more people do not change their user-agent string at all!

My private estimate is that Win2000 and Win2003 are used way way way more than 9x. It seems like (the not that many) KM people are the only ones who still have the old software. Even most people with old hardware are using Win2000 or XP.

Win 9x machines do not start significantly faster, and the system of choice if you want to just check mail and last forum posts would be WinXP Classic mode or at oldest Win2000.

And besides, nothing in your post has provided any details or info that could clarify my question to ndebord. I maintain that the most used Windows OS outside of XP is either Windows 7 or Vista, while ndebord says it is Win98se (or I will even give him all the Win 9x's taken together). There is still no convincing proof other than both of your personal opinions that the stats are unreliable and that somehow, somewhere there are hidden enclaves with droves of users running Win9x.......

AFAIK No reliable sniffers for OS exists.

All sniffers are based & rely on JavaScript. And the commands set inside the browsers overrule the questions of the sniffers. Test Yourself at Gemal's browser spy pages.

Yes, I am "seriously deluted" but by nothing but statistics.
Win2000 is not bared - that is why I think so. In more detail:

9x has significantly outsold Win2000. Both 9x and win2000 users are as likely to continue to use their hardware or pass it on together with the OS.

If 0.6% Win2000 systems are still around - the win 9x systems around are more.

The difference win2000 is not bared from usage on relevant sites.
Users have no reason to camouflage. Users of 9x have no reason that change back once they started spoofing on pages like Yahoo mail. If Yahoo's 9x users start to spoof permanently this might cut out a number of million users.

PPL that own 9x did not buy OS like win2000 or a new XP to use with their old hardware. XP has a minimum hardware required. You and I know to deactivate but does any Dick, Tom and Harry?

I maintain my private estimate: 1-3% 9x as active and actively maintained backup systems.

These systems are still around. But do not make many statistically counted hits.


Startup speed. I have ME on a P 500 around still.
I am sure ME starts faster than XP on anything up to my 2008 vintage hardware.


9x is a faster start yet.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/01/2010 11:39PM by guenter.

Quote
bksening

Quote
ndebord
...worked with W98se. I know, I know, the market share is down a lot, but it is probably the most used OS outside of XP in Windows

You are obviously joking, or are seriously deluded, or are purposefully trying to propagate outright incorrect info.

The most used Windows OS outside of XP is either Windows 7 or Vista. Probably Windows 7 now as its numbers seriously picked up in the last couple of months.

bksening,

Now, now... make nice. Let's not start up any flames where they are not needed.

N

eh, enough of the debate about the "stats" of w9x users in today's world.

@guenter: last time I used a 9x OS was back in mid-2007. had to upgrade my old HP pavilion computer from WinME to WinXP at that time cuz most of the apps I use are barely XP-only programs.

Quote

9x has significantly outsold Win2000

since when? that can be debatable on a separate topic, but not here.

well, one could try using KernelEx to make Gecko 1.9.1 based browsers "work" under Win98/ME. not a perfect solution but it works to some extent for other w9x users out there (and they're not complaining about that).

Quote
4td8s
enough of the debate about the "stats" of w9x users in today's world.

Quote

9x has significantly outsold Win2000

since when? that can be debatable on a separate topic, but not here.

1.) Looked around a little, unidentified win32 amounts to about half of win2000 current usage on some pages. So all is misty since they might spoof.

2.) I would not debate. & I'm not interested enough to dig for old usage or sales stats. Could not find any right away.

IMHO Win9x was consumer branch. Win2000 was pro branch.
XP was the first MS OS for both consumers and IT pro usage.


As far as I remember there were less pros than consumers between 98 and 2000 (ME) - but I might remember wrong



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/06/2010 04:44AM by guenter.

Quote
guenter

2.) I would not debate. & I'm not interested enough to dig for old usage or sales stats. Could not find any right away.

GOOD! so let's NOT bring up that kind of subject ever again, guenter? can we at least agree on that?

Quote
guenter
IMHO Win9x was consumer branch. Win2000 was pro branch.
XP was the first MS OS for both consumers and IT pro usage.

WinME was also part of the 9x family of Windows - also marketed for consumers/home users but not meant to be used for pro/business users/corporations.
though Win2000 can be good use for small office/home users since it was the first NT-based OS to officially support plug-n-play, USB/Firewire devices and a version of DirectX that can fully support many computer games.

Quote
4td8s
GOOD! so let's NOT bring up that kind of subject ever again, guenter? can we at least agree on that?

Didn't know that is your forum :O
You sure you don't overestimate yourself a little bit?? :cool:
Not to mention this oh-so-friendly atmosphere sometimes here.

No idea why any can get exited about user stats of old Wins

Continued support for 9x would be on my personal wish list - if there was time and knowledge to support it. But there is none.

For me it does not matter whether 0.26 or more % who use it still, even 0.1% make up several millions users. What count here and for me: some 9x users are here and help others. I'd wish it for them.

p.s. I used WinME never a Win98 - but I'd group all 9x & ME younger than 95 together.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/09/2010 09:46PM by guenter.

Yes, guenter, from all the stats I have seen, I agree that unidentified Win32 internet users is probably about 0.26%.

For me, what matters is there is still no reply from ndebord. He posted some useless reply about making nice, but totally disregarding any important explanation about his either joking or seriously deluded or purposefully incorrect assertion that the most used Windows OS outside of XP is Win98se, and that "the stats are clearly unreliable".

I maintain that the most used Windows OS outside of XP is either Windows 7 or Vista. It doesn't matter at all how many Win9x systems are running; it's even lower than the 0.5% of Win2000 internet users.

ndebord, I am not trying to start flames; I am just requesting info to back up your stated opinions. Could you please provide stats for your statement about the second most used Windows OS, and elaborate why the stats seem so clearly unreliable to you?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 10:07AM by bksening.

Quote
bksening

I maintain that the most used Windows OS outside of XP is either Windows 7 or Vista. It doesn't matter at all how many Win9x systems are running; it's even lower than the 0.5% of Win2000 internet users.

ndebord, I am not trying to start flames; I am just requesting info to back up your stated opinions. Could you please provide stats for your statement about the second most used Windows OS, and elaborate why the stats seem so clearly unreliable to you?

This has been clarified some while ago. See my answer to ndebord's post:

Quote
guenter

2.) You overestimate user size of win9x. There are millions but statistically they are few.

p.s. Just as much as these statistics data possibly underestimate the number and share. All relevant pages that are part of statistics bar win9x users from service.

Bared users have to use alternative browsers that can fake OS info in the browser string ( I doubt that any number of users hacks registry to fake IE's agent info ).

The link I inserted guided any to fairly accurate, current stats.
You do not have to guess about Vista and Win7 usage. XP -> win7 -> Vista already.

In detail as quote.

2010  	Win7  	Vista  	Win2003  WinXP  W2000  	Linux  Mac
March 	14.7% 	13.7% 	1.4% 	57.8% 	0.5% 	4.5% 	6.9%

You did not notice. Maybe You got excited about the fact that I calculated/guessed 9.x usage? Anyway current JavaScript based sniffers cannot detect a faked OS or browser ID.

BTW: The 0.26% unspecified Win32 appear on pages where users do not have to spoof to get services.

p.s. these 0.26% do not appear on stats that include where U have to spoof.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 04/10/2010 09:54PM by guenter.

Quote
bksening
Yes, guenter, from all the stats I have seen, I agree that unidentified Win32 internet users is probably about 0.26%.

For me, what matters is there is still no reply from ndebord. He posted some useless reply about making nice, but totally disregarding any important explanation about his either joking or seriously deluded or purposefully incorrect assertion that the most used Windows OS outside of XP is Win98se, and that "the stats are clearly unreliable".

I maintain that the most used Windows OS outside of XP is either Windows 7 or Vista. It doesn't matter at all how many Win9x systems are running; it's even lower than the 0.5% of Win2000 internet users.

ndebord, I am not trying to start flames; I am just requesting info to back up your stated opinions. Could you please provide stats for your statement about the second most used Windows OS, and elaborate why the stats seem so clearly unreliable to you?

bksening,

I asked you once to make nice... consider yourself filtered.

N