FEEDBACK TO SPECIAL PLATFORM
Please Post Your Questions and Discussion Here

Let's give this a try, and see if it works. :-)

1. Happiness. ha ha! I used to teach in a couple of max penitentiaries, and a very tough, very good counsellor there always started heavy-duty meetings off by standing up, looking all around, and saying one word: "Happiness." Big tough fellow. He wanted us all to remember, always, what all discussions are ultimately directed toward.

2. When I've mentioned a Council recently, I've meant a casual group of people who are active in the forums here. Council Lite, okay? No one has been asked yet, and lots of people have not much time, so we can name names all we like, but of course people might very well choose not to participate--understood; no problem.

I am a bit shy of naming names, becuz lately I overlooked one of the most important--Alain Aupeix, a longtime K-Meleon builder second to none. So now I'll put his name first, but I sure hope I don't forget someone else's. If I do, it sure is not intended. And everyone knows the main guys anyway, so I guess I'm just asking whether some of these folks might wish to say, "Sure, I'll help." [Help what? Following.] If obvious names are missing here, will you please mention them? Thanks. (And, sorry, Alain.)

These following people are all people who have contributed somehow in the building of K-Meleon in its various chameleon colours. There are lots of other people who have an excellent understanding of the thing, and who are excellent "interpreters" (explainers of how it works). But this first group, I'm hoping, includes people who have not already said no thanks and who might be best to have authority to change things in SourceForge, regarding database and official builds.
Alain, jsnj, Guenter, Al, Hao, Fred, Douglas, kko, Dorian, Brian Bruns, everling

I e-mailed Christophe, but have not heard back. Eyes-Only said "no thanks". Andrew has recently said he is busy doing other things, and Ulf has attempted to detach himself from K-Meleon for some time.

3. This brings me to the core concept of having a Council. We almost lost our database, which was due to be annihilated November 14th. Christophe moved it for us, with a week to spare. But SourceForge had simply updated its software, and had given lots of notice that this database adjustment to the new software had to be done by that deadline. SourceForge did nothing wrong. We did. And what we did wrong, was that we did nothing.

We just sat here, looking at our screens, and thinking that someone was taking care of business for us.

If you look on Sourceforge, you see the names of the "people in charge" as devs and/or administrators. They were at that time Ulf and Andrew and no one else. Even though Ulf has emphasized that he is neither, in the present tense, a dev nor an administrator, his name is still there as I right this. (For newcomers to K-Meleon, the K-M 0.9 you are using was developed by Ulf last January. One of the reasons this man has not been freed from the K-M dungeons is because he has been K-M's only build developer in the recent past.)

But Ulf has made it clear he doesn't use this browser. And Andrew has also told us that he has other things in focus now. What is critical here is that this General Forum hosts so much of the discussion and development of ideas for K-Meleon that any acive administrator or developer needs to be in close touch. This is unusual. Forums are generally a mix of end-users wondering where their files are; not so much the devs themselves involved in such trivial discussions. But here we have jsnj, we used to have Andrew, and we have all those other names above, plus people like Drahken who are creative experts in this browser. So a newcomer's question is right beside a state-of-the-art technical question.

And we like it that way. (So it happens to be the best forum on the Web. Not surprising for the Green Lizard.)

Christophe's name was added to the SourceForge list just a week or two ago, so he could access the files. Why it had ever been removed, he didn't know--but Christophe himself had not removed it. (Newcomers: Christophe is the man who created K-Meleon in the first place.)

I propose, right here and now, that only actively involved people should have authority in SourceForge.

Why? So no one ever looks at that list again, and says, "Oh, everything is okay. So-and-so is there to make sure it's all working just fine." We came WAY too close for comfort to losing what we enjoy so much.

So, I propose a Council. The rest is up to you. Guenter has emphasized, "No Kings. No heavy-duty rules." K-Meleon is a casual association of freedom-loving people. Still, should one person be able to declare an official build or move a database or move someone's name off a list? Well then, what about a Council with half a dozen people or more, and some sort of agreement needed between maybe three of them.

That's the beginning of a rule. So some rules are nice to have. Like gravity, they do help ground things.

I refer to "holding the keys" to indicate holding authority in SourceForge to make changes in K-Meleon. I think it would be a good idea for Ulf and Andrew to return their keys now. I also think it would be great, should they choose to circle back to K-M in their future pursuits, for them to have "keys" to the browser again. See what I mean?

But let's ask those guys I've mentioned, plus those I've forgotten <groan>, if they would take over the keys to the browser. Now, everling has already indicated he knows how to keep SourceForge in good shape. People like Al have provided steady, strong perspectives here for years. Jsnj is one of those guys who knows a tremendous amount and has been willing to help the newest people asking questions.

May we hand over the keys to these people, now, please?

Thank you.
Carson
_______________________________

The Special Platform is hopefully for just those 4 selected guys to speak their minds and to coordinate AMONGST THEMSELVES ONLY what their perspectives are.

Please PLACE YOUR POSTS HERE, regarding any and all questions or feedback to whatever they choose to post on their Special Platform. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, EVERYBODY.
:-)

Personally, I think it's about time something be done. There was a LOT of talk about a Council when we were in peril of losing our database. Now that the crisis has passed, things have kind of slid back to "life as usual" around here.

And when the next immediate crisis arises? What then?

We'll do it all over again, run around like chickens minus our heads, in a panic, wondering who will do what and who will bail us out this time and, "What about those people listed as admins? Shouldn't they be handling this?" yet they're nowhere to be found...

We'll be caught with our pants down once again wondering, "Why didn't we listen and do something about this before when we had the chance?"

I agree anyway: Not someone with tonnes of authourity here (after all we're not Mozilla.org nor are any of us asking for that), and not someone who's going to let it go to their head, and if they find something else in life that interests them---great!---then they're accountable to someone and they fork over their key or something. The point is, with a group of knowledgeable people you've always got someone here to handle a crisis!

As it stands we can't even get an "Official Build" out. We might just as well be dead in the water, close up shop, and we all stop pretending to be devs or whatever, and will the last person to leave please turn out the lights? Why? Because there's no one in charge to pay the light bill...

Stop and consider that for a moment. We're crippled as we stand right now.

Dorian, Fred, Hao, kko, Brain Bruns, Alain, Guenter (with the excellent chrome works)... we're all basically just guys playing in a sandbox with our very expensive trucks---because there's no one here to make a blessing over the work and pronounce it "Official".

Well, I think I better get off my soapbox as I've made my point more than clear. -sigh-

Thanks to Carson for taking the bull by the horns. You've done very well, I feel, in addressing the issues head on. BRAVO!

Amicalement mes amis,

Eyes-Only
"L'Peau-Rouge"

Anything I say will just be a repeat of what's already been said, so I'll just say that I agree with everything.

Brian

Well I've been around here using K-Meleon now for near on four years, and I still do and probably have no intentions of disappearing into the ether like so many others have over the years. As for being part of a council, sure like I mentioned to you in our email correspondances Carson, if it helps I'll be part of it. I don't want to be heaped with too much responsibility, but I'll play my part to keep the show on the road.

As for handing over the "keys", well that's a grey area for me. Andrew and Ulf are currently listed as official developers (though Andrew was more of a co-ordinator if anything), and a short time ago Romanito actually was on there as well (briefly). My guess is once the situation has been ratified, and we have a selection of willing participants for the "council"the next step will be to contact Andrew, put forward the names and see what he says.

For the other guys mentioned, I'll leave it to them to have their say and so forth on whether they want to be part of it or not. This could be a new beginning for K-Meleon and a golden age might just be dawning.

Like Brian, I can't add much to what's been said before, except to declare that I also agree warmly with it, and thank especially Carson and Eyes-Only for saying it so well! And Al's comment about "a new beginning for K-Meleon and a golden age might just be dawning" is really quite an exciting prospect.

I'd be happy to help where I can, as time and knowledge permit. Though we don't want to ossify K-Meleon by formalizing and institutionalizing it out of recognition, we do need sufficient structure and focus to achieve the goals of developing new versions. The skills and good folk are obviously here in the foums, they just need some gentle and well-mannered shepherding!

I just wanted to state that I support Carson's statement...

IM_very_HO it is totally sufficient when all do what they feel capable of.
The man power situation in Forum has not been that good for long;
not only in number but also in quality and willingness to take care of chores.

(except = almost no c coders here & k-m needs a solution to a problem possibly
associated to: gkwidget.dll // and that looks like a c problem to me).


All have come here with different experiences; so did i:
- my past experience inside/with some long bygone council were unfavorable.
So I am wary. I do not like to be singeled out - not without prior warning
- I am not special and do not want to be.


Since Carson singled me out, i thought he would possibly l
ike some exuberance of verbosity,

;-) in which he himself excels and in which he seems to thrive ;-) ,

I will comply to this bidding & add some unstructured thoughts
in semi-foreign gibberish.



I am no dev - and i am & was inconsequential for k-m's existence.
Both my person and my opinion do not matter. Not more than any ones.
I did not deserve the moking & thus doubtfull "honor" to be grouped together
with Andrew, jsnj or Ulf, all of whom are no regular contacts of mine.

But I will try to answer like a We (forum) instead of a wee.


Admin system did not work too well in the recent past?
Our project almost died when the outside =
sf did not have someone that they could reach?
Maybe Admin system is only bad when the Admin does not have time?
Maybe k-m project Admin and Dev did not have time to tell us:
that we perhaps do not have an Admin or a Dev?
Andrew has been the competent Admin that kept k-m alive for long
& we thank him.


Council? We only need spokesmen or people that can contact
the outside in our name. & that the outside can contact
(that is system immanent at sf anyway - correct me if i am wrong).

For the rest we could do with a reliable communications platform
(that is set up redundantly) (& a public plan // green field with links! plus a redirect?
where we go to when Forum is down during summer
... or when sf does things 2 us - at the moment insiders know: we meet @ k-ninja ... but do strangers & new ppl know?).

We need ppl (technicians, software-, web-designer) that can act in our name
- that are technical capable to mend problems with our communications system (Forum) & are willing to take care of it such as e. g. Christophe & everling and Bartholomeo.pl.

(possibly even ppl chosen from different time zones - if we take the problem seriously: like Brian when sun is high in the US - Al, everling... ... alain ...
as the sun passes around the globe. )



We are not a really numerous tribe. As a result of that we can dare
IM_v_HO direct participation / like custom in small Swiss cantons
(Just in case we really need something like a decision.).

{ For me visiting Forum and Forum driven development has something to
do with direct participation/democracy without joining a list/council.
I may not like it another way - & i did not like rejoined mailing list.
I rejoined list from necessity not choice. }

We MAY want to have a board to have a last word (decision)
if we can not agree about things // yet i doubt that we need this.

{ IM_v_HO = better ppl that do the work do that deciding & agreeing
what is needed to continue work & we can normally agree.

& CAVE: No one can tell the ppl that do the jobs how to do them & when to have time
( sorry there = no democracy in that // & there must be none in that).

Nobody can tell e. g. Dorian how & when to make an exe or me how & when to slim a chrome
(- or Ulf and Andrew when to have time for sf.)
We / U may not like it - but can we / U complain?

Is there a way someone could object/complain about quality or lack of volunteer work?
IM_v_HO he would have to do a better job: make exes and chromes...
Much of our project is volunteer work and does not need a council or even reading Forum.

I will try not to make any request to others that may erode k-m bases.
(& i fear that ppl in a Council may want to complain without doing development/work)


IF we have Council - i prefer - a Council that = more like "condata" not "consilium"
/ whatever that was in Rome }



Just before the forum-downage a user complained in Forum about Ulf's wrong work, decisions for k-m.
It was both unjust and showing that the user did not know much about k-m.
Even with my limited understanding I could have created the very browser that the man wanted from the browser that Ulf designed & kept alive for us/me from 0.7 to 0.9. It was still in 0.9. This incedent made me read into the past of k-m and i reconsidered and changed some of my views. Ulf gave us volunteer work & I am not sure whether Carson was right to mention Ulf here; after all we knew: that Ulf had quit this project long ago.


Some one that i personally consider qualified outcried about forks
and maybe some think guidance is needed to prevent that?

IM_v_HO - we have ONE browser; - the rest are themes
- and we do not & did not need coordination and reglementation in the past.

In the themes users (& sometimes devs) show what k-m is worth.
( what can be done ... ).

Examples: alain's and Fred's .... themes (names by alphabet)

It is much like straight dev work (without exe that carries working example) by jsnj
...and other people posted forums and wiki.

Currently we have several specialized themes that cater for special needs
like that for "On the Move" by Douglas or work for cd by Christian ...
or... pretty colored Tang "village" skin ; - ) or new translations.

Major current theme tracks followed are: innovation:
- new GRE_versions, languages (by several)
- an outright new version with much innovation (Dorian)

Work published:

- a totally new and modular menu plugin scheme by 307 (&contributors)

& http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?f=2&i=4422&t=4422

- there has been and will be improvement from the themes
- in future ideas from that evolutionary work will be in k-m

Work has already been (re)_introduced to the ONE // if it was good
(best known example: work by users that is in 0.9 now)
(btw a person that started to add to k-m base after getting
a themed non standard 0.8 exe = me)


What to agree about and what to do right now / next.
(again: do we really need a Council for it?).
We may want to delegate some person/ppl that:

Ask Andrew (who apparently owns the place)
to grant access rights to more ppl such as jsnj, Christophe,
everling ... if they want ... & if he has not done so already.

And tell Andrew what we would like to exhibit at an emminant place
like front porch (green field on the left)?

(can we really: WE do NOT own the place)

If we can ask Andrew?

0.9_1.7.5 should to be updated.
(jsnj said: we did not have that in the past.
True - but why not have updates in future?)


Security updates (if we have any)

and goodies

(if we have any that are good for almost all user
and do not raise support questions in forum
/ like some recent content blocking things that
caused concern/question about something not working).

plus we may want a direct link to other ongoing work:

(maybe via Al's wiki section about it?
= pointing at his wiki article as official base/source for links)

such as a forum thread about themes and building:

http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?f=1&i=25998&t=25998


We may have to go to Canossa and ask at devs list to help to fix the problem
associated to: gkwidget.dll

( i will go - if some ppl want me to ask. -but for myself? No, i would rather use exe with flicker/bug and not ask).

If we ask? We would need a fix that is in 0.9 exe = that forum /=any users/ can
do future updates without further outside help except from Mozilla files.

btw -> best tech for update: kko's package; Mtype (since we got that going with GRE.1.7), some Meta search like Fred suggested and included, translation macro by jsnj, active X that uses white listed media player ...
(because that is secure and working out of the box for user types too).


Some Outsiders seem to have problem with current lack of officialdom.
& raised objection to our system of updating. Do we have to share that view?

They do not understand that free GNU software stands for:

"Voluntary" which means: NO BUG FIXES or GUARANTEES can be DEMANDED additional to that WORK ( no money = no contract / no business relationship ).

We can not be expected to generate an official Council for them.
We can not be expected to have official developers for them.


I may be happy to help where I can, as time and knowledge permit....,
don't want to ossify K-Meleon by formalizing and institutionalizing....
and so i do not intend to spend much of my time with organization.

Not more than i must or that is needed.

Organization and Council are just not my hobbies,
hacking chrome and creating software not really either,
I am simply not qualified and trained for software development;
I much prefer to create pretty things like animating applets and gifs,
I am fairly good at that and I have not done that for so long.

regards

0.9_1.7.5 should to be updated.
(jsnj said: we did not have that in the past.
True - but why not have updates in future?)

In the past we had to wait around for updates, new developments often used to stall for protracted periods of time. 0.6 to 0.7 is a obvious example of this; it must have been over a year or so before any signs of 0.7 development commenced, and in the meantime a favourite hobby in the forums was fending off trolls, flamers and the like. It was oddly enough around the time that Phoenix first surfaced, and goodness knows we had quite a few people trolling around and also jumping ship to it because of no K-Meleon updates. Of course nowadays we accept and work alongside the Firefox folks and developments but back then it gave them more ammunition than anything. "K-Meleon is dead" was always a popular thread topic/troll back in those days.

But times change. Nowadays we can fend off these wild accusations and point people to the "Update the GRE Yourself" section, or alternatively show them the way to download one of the unofficial themed exe's. It's not like the situation's as dour as it used to be.

So should we have an update in the future? Well yes we should, a nice new build for people to play around with would be nice. As jsnj has stated, sometime in the new year is what we should aim for. It'll give us time to get organised, get the concepts of the "council" worked out, and most importantly get the development team together and ready for some action.

IMHO a new incremental version of K-Meleon is do-able, maybe even in the form of a Service Pack. It should be properly built too, with the source submitted to the CVS to keep it current as well (of course if it is just a re-build with the current GRE then that may not be necessary).

Other's may disagree, but then that's the idea of a council, so no one person holds the key to the ultimate decision, it is a democracy instead. User's will definately also help out and voice their opinions too, we are here to listen to them as well.

@Guenter, I wuz hoping you'd take advantage of the Special Platform, because I knew your point of view was your own perspective. In a traditional forum, people discussed their different views.

Note the "DI" in "discuss" and "different". Also "disection" and so many other words. The idea was to compare and contrast; to take apart.

Politics, or poles, represented the different "points" of "view". [This is why today's "politically correct" must be a contradiction within its own terms; an oxyoron. You can't possibly be politically "correct"; you must always be politically different. That's what poles ARE, and that is why we go to "poles" to vote.]

Anyway, Guenter, I felt if you and the three others would kindly place your points of view in the Special Platform, then the discussion and questions regarding them could be here. The advantage was that the various different views could be easily referred to, and the main perspectives would become clear.

In just one thread, I'm afraid your points, which are very, very important, will become obscured as more posts are added.

Um . . . of all the things I did consider, this possibility was one I did not. All I can think of to do about it now is to (1) ask your permission, Guenter, whether (2) jsnj is able to cut and paste your remarks, above, to the other thread.

Thanks very much for writing such an excellent post.

Oxymoron; not oxyoron. Oxen always knew people were morons. The oxen kept quiet about it; hence "dumb" and "dumb as an ox".
;-)

@Al - imho we should aim at GRE updates primarily.
{ & keep a goody or two in backhand just for that purpose ; - ) get me}
There are simply no security bugs on our side of the fence - so why rebuild for 1.7

We have reason to show that we can do security updates.
- Your section in Wiki could be a viable alternative to updating
the green field to the right. A commented official guide to updates (for those that are strangers to our forum and its ways).

Bug: as far as i remember there was a GRE bug with Mozilla 0.97 and then they
did not discover any for very long. So there was not reason to start GRE updates.

Besides: who except Eyes-Only and me had ever tried it & knew that it was easy?
As soon as Mozilla.org stuck to GRE 1.7 to maintain a GRE became available for long term updating and maintenance. I still have the 0.8 that is capable of running the 1.7 engine from last year - the father of w-b and our current updates.


@Carson - i am not totally opposed Councils.
& U obviously did not understand me. I am just very carfull.
Cuz there are definite limits what a Council here can decide.

You struck some key notes that raised under_notes from the past in me.
if i am right with that ...

Let us be blunt.

You can definitely not try to govern other ppl`s volunteer work.
If You tried with me today:

You hack the chromes.
cuz i will make applets.
that is my perspective.

Long ago ppl could try - i complained but still did what was needed -
but not any more.

The only things that can be organized are e. g. what is set up on k-m page.
Do we use finished updates. What to include if we have choice.

An that is the end of my comment - cuz i have some pref.xul to hack.

Well, my intention was to not be involved in this part of things. Guenter, would you tell us more, please, about this, from your earlier post? Thanks.
____________________________
"Ask Andrew (who apparently owns the place)
to grant access rights to more ppl such as jsnj, Christophe,
everling ... if they want ... & if he has not done so already.

And tell Andrew what we would like to exhibit at an emminant place
like front porch (green field on the left)?

(can we really: WE do NOT own the place)

If we can ask Andrew?"
_____________________________

I am somewhat confused about your concern with governing. This is Nov 24th, so for the past 10 days, now, there would have been no data base, had we all waited for someone else to govern us.

jsnj, Hao, Fred, Douglas, kko, Dorian,
Alain, Al, Brian Bruns, everling,
Guenter, Carson,
sounds good, but be a little careful with the admin keys (if the forum were hacked into it would also mean the loss of some data).

What I learned in that brief blackout was:
-the thought of having to go back to the official "0.9" (1.5gecko) is depressing
-it was a good idea when I signed up to the kmeleon-dev-list
-one forum isn't enough (there have to be other ways of communicating)
-a few people need admin keys (so at least one can be reached on short notice)
-the database is less stable than the entrance pages (the links on the green sidebar that were fully spelled out were available throughout, but sadly those were mostly links to static documents or back to broken database sections)

To address that last item first:
I think there should be more links on the green sidebar to external sites, including, with appropriate warnings, to development builds
(In my own experience, I have lost more data to Windows crashes and to official K-Meleon builds failing to finish writing into "history", "bookmarks" or the "groups"-section of prefs,
than I have lost to using even the most unstable development builds)
There are many good links on the ResourceLinks page , but you have to click your way through the forum to get to them, and even assuming the forum never goes down again, there will still be some moments when access is limited by load (and the bottom part of the green sidebar is blank)
Please note that even the Firefox product site , which is verrrrrry careful about stability and the focus official builds, has a link to development builds available, and the Firefox Project site is dominated by links to cutting edge work

To address the first item last:
Its past time that an official upgrade of "0.9" to 1.7.12gecko was released, and actually almost all of the work has already been done by people at this forum
Firefox is about to release Firefox 1.5, and start development work towards Firefox 2 (with planning starting on Firefox 3) and
Mozilla has split 5 ways (if I understand things right, this is confusing - for reference, please see the Nov. 4, 2005 08:21 post about "two branches and the trunk")
If I have messed these 5 sections up, will somebody PLEASE post a correction:

• SeaMonkey application suite's final stable BRANCH is 1.7.x (currently 1.7.12), which is related to Firefox 1.0 (currently Firefox 1.0.7)
(maybe call our current work from this K-Meleon 0.9.12rc1)
...
• CRITICAL BUG-FIXING will be done ONLY off of the 1.8 BRANCH, which is related to Firefox 1.5 (currently Firefox 1.5rc3)
(maybe call our work from this K-Meleon 1.0.0beta)
...
• mostly-front-end work (and all Firefox 2 related short-term fixes) will be on the 1.8.1 BRANCH, which is related to Firefox 2
(maybe call our work from this K-Meleon 1.0.1alpha)
...
• major platform development will be on the 1.9 TRUNK (which will also receive the more stable and long-lived 1.8.1 changes)
(maybe call our work from this K-Meleon 1.1alpha)
...
• crystal-ball planning will be towards Mozilla 2.0 (which I think will be related to Firefox 3)
(maybe we should make plans along these lines towards K-Meleon 1.2)

Note: a BRANCH build is based on a MORE-STABLE, older version of the trunk
Note: a TRUNK build is a less-stable, NEW-DEVELOPMENT from the trunk

YAYYY . . . ! Thanks a lot, Vincent! Maybe that will help clarify some things very well.
:-)

2 details:

Re Vincent's very last Notes: Yes, the concept was of a tree trunk growing straight up as a main support/supply system, and putting out branches as it grew taller.

Therefore the experimental ("new development") TRUNK, which would also be the state of the art (I don't like the term, "bleeding edge", but it's often called that). The Trunk builds attract the most experimental people, who love to be right up to date and are either confident or crazy (or both).

Along the way, whenever a Trunk build is looking very nice indeed, it is said to be "cut off" (the metaphors abound, and are horrendously mixed) as a Branch build; or, staying with the concept, the Branch occurs because that's what branches do. Hence Vincent's "more stable" Branch builds, which are polished up and made extra nice, but which are not supposed to be experimental builds. (Well, beta builds are entirely experimental, but you know what I mean.)

(When Firefox made its debut a year ago as 1.0, it forgot all that in the summer of 2004 and the system was pretty raunchy, with Branches being more experimental than Trunks--because everybody was excited, and everybody was in a hurry.)

Returning to Guenter:

I came up with a reference to learning to play the harpsichord. Let's see if this helps. I have no intention of myself or anyone else forcing you to learn to play the harpsichord. When you worry so much about being controlled, it sounds to me like you are worrying that someone will force you to learn the harpsichord. It is way off to the side. It ain't going to happen. The council could include YOU, except I think you have time constraints. But it will definitely include people just like you--well, no it won't, 'cuz there ain't nobody nowhere like Guenter.

Okay, it will include Al, whom you've always got along with famously. And infamously, but we won't go in to that. :-) And I happen to know that Al does not play the harpsichord himself, and has no intention to force you to learn to play the harpsichord.

And to meet you halfway, Guenter, even though you have demonstrated your superb love of freedom by ignoring the nice Platform I made for you--to meet you halfway, I myself propose the first RULE: RULE ONE: THERE SHALL BE NO RULES GOVERNING GUENTER. No one can be on the Council unless he abides by Rule One.

Um, by the way, I have a few fellows coming over to your house this afternoon, uh, with a . . . well, it's a harpsichord. Where do you want it?
;-)
Best regards from Vancouver.

I'm afraid my posting has been a little out of synch. I started to write my last post after reading
bst82551post of 11-22-05 20:16
and before seeing the flurry of posts in the last 2 days.

I second Guenter's statement:
IM_very_HO it is totally sufficient when all do what they feel capable of.
I think that is true of this forum and of the world in general.

I have mixed feelings about this statement of Guenter's:
I am no dev - and i am & was inconsequential for k-m's existence.

I understand that he means that he didn't (and maybe couldn't) do the coding and the compiling of the exe's; but at this moment Guenter and Fred are doing exactly what is needed, keeping a focus on updating the GRE in a simple stable version of K-Meleon based on the 1.7.12 gecko and our current exe so that we can make available a K-Meleon that most people can start using immediately.
If we could standardize on a version of a 1.7.12gecko based K-Meleon 0.9 and make it available on Source Forge as a release-candidate with a link on it's Readme.html to the forum for feedback, that's the "dev" that's needed most now.
Dorian's work, and Hao's, and Fred's, and that of Douglas and others who are working with the shift to 1.8 and 1.9 geckos, and using Tabs through the operating system, and the problems of running off of flash cards and cd's are crucial, but those aren't standardized enough to put out as a new release or even a release-candidate (although, I must admit that it is only those builds, and K-Ninja, that I personally want to use).

p.s. this is a perfectly good place for Guenter to post. This thread says in big letters: "Discussion HERE".
If Ulf, Andrew, Jsnj, or Guenter have something "sticky" to post they can use the other thread, but if they want to post to this one, it's fine.

Sorry, I have to go now,
-Vincent

Hmmmm . . . .

Well, the fact is, I never was a person who sought to control anyone at all. The way I live and breathe is freedom taken to its limit in this world of ours.

So, having said all this and at least given folks some food for thought, I shall do the one thing I can that will demonstate two things: one, that Guenter may rest assured that he is perfectly right in saying no one can control anyone here--or force them to learn the harpsichord. And I was as much interested in doing one as the other. 'Tis true.

And the other is to simply agree. I did not know that Andrew owned K-Meleon; that was something new to me. My impression was that the browser was forestalled because all its development would routinely be taken to a point, and then passed on into some sort of void, from which as many answers came as you see now posted on the Special Platform.

Those who subscribe to the DevsList know that I did send a covering e-mail to alert all those addressed on the Special Platform that indeed it existed.

I live for freedom. I love freedom, and I love learning. So, this seems to me to be a good place to take my leave.

Thanks very much, and very best wishes to one and all.

no government: that is good Carson ; - )
- when we do not need to dicuss and council we have more time to work


i am very tired - back from work.

1.5 ffox?
Dorian is very far already.
it looked like a certficates menu from pipki.jar is also started.
(i checked inside exe to look for what to hack out of chrome).
Means we possibly save another 100 kb or so soon.

Fred, Hao have tested issues.
jsnj sounded like he has created a set Proxy macro?
The goodies that are ready for an update would be also ready for a new browser,
he he. (except some Xul things like mimetypes editor do not work with new exe)

We have three finished 1.8/1.9 chromes.
And we can probably use the smallest and fastest of it. big grin!
we may even able to create one that can be used for page debuging
so we are told why our k-m does have troubkle with certain pages ; - )

thx to all people testing & working we are not @ the beginning of dev cycle.

Maybe we can start things like docu, so that they are also almost ready soon?
The old things need to be updated. Many here do not speek English well
so... i assume that You want to do it?

Maybe we can store/place the files that are needed for running
browser under older Wins somewhere?

Forum: maybe better to offer volunteer work for it and wiki?
If all feel that we can - we can also ask to appoint more techs.
But i hope with respect for the long work of Andrew and with no
complain about any ones recent lack of time.

regards

p. s. it is snowing outside.

Just writing a bit about the forum and the database.

"Now, everling has already indicated he knows how to keep SourceForge in good shape."
Please note that all I know well is HTML, CSS, PHP and MySQL and that I'm at ease with maintaining sites. What I don't know is Sourceforge. More specifically, I haven't seen the innards of this lizard's homepage before. But I'm pretty sure I can work my way around because of my background.

Regarding my ability to access the site to maintain it, I have not yet been contacted by Andrew or anybody else with administrative rights.

@everling, HTML, CSS, PHP and MySQL is sufficiant for the site i understand?

We say: what one hand can do will not be saur ( acid - hard ) for two.

In the past the ppl that knew to program also did site tech. So i assume that Your knowledge will improve general base - besides You Bartolome a member of mailing list offered to help during crisis & he has similar knowledge. And i hope the "old" ppl will pass on some of their knowledge.

I know html and css and can help with that.
and it is the extra backup that You wanted to make
- that will relieve our souls from fear.

greetings

Haha, guenter is 13:37. :-)

Brian

I've translated to spanish the translation macro (so it should be a "meta translation" :-)

Does anyone know how to post it on the macro library as I did with the GRE update spanish tutorial? The wiki seems not to be working to do that.

@brian . guenter = CET = Central European Time;

@Enaitz - alain must know - ?try to contact him.

No, what I meant was that he posted at 13:37, and 1337 in leetspeak (hacker/gamer language) means leet which means elite. Haha, makes me laugh that he posted at that time.

Brian

To modify or add something, you must be connected to the wiki.

To make it, you must go to bugs and connect you here, after, you'll have at the bottom of the page, the way to modify or add the page.

I live for freedom. I love freedom, and I love learning. So, this seems to me to be a good place to take my leave.

It's a pity I didn't cotten onto this sooner, but if you're popping back in for a quick read Carson, all the best for the future. I'll make sure your ideas are carried on the way they should have.

Ditto, Al.

I have uploaded a second version K-Meleon0.9-original-updated-1.7.12-plus2.
Complete 1.7.12 update, Pop-up bug fixed by inclusion of two files
from 1.7.5 and 1.7.8 .
http://rapidshare.de/files/8261313/K-Meleon0.9-original-updated-1.7.12-plus2.exe.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/8261476/K-Meleon0.9-original-updated-1.7.12-plus2.zip.html

Fred

What? Carson's gone? Wow..... wow.

Brian

If Carson's really gone, this is the worst possible outcome of this lizard governance debate... It really makes me sad. Let's all call Carson back, PLEASE!

I hope that Carson is only taking a time-out.
His messages would be sadly missed.

Fred