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K-Meleon Web Browser Forum
I want to update the wiki documentation on themes but I have so many questions. I'm going to list my questions and hope that some folks in the community know the answers to at least some of these:
1. There are (I think) 2 skin systems. The "old" skin system is used by the Klassic theme and pretty much also themes from the community. It is supported from version 1.5 to 76. A "new" skin system was introduced in version 75+76, but it's only used it seems for the "Default" theme. What then are themes on this page: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/KMeleonThemesWiki
They appear similar to the "old" style skins but even older. KM 1.5 came out in 2008, but a few of those themes were updated in 2009. Were they updated to the (then new) "old" system? Should any of these themes work with KM 76?
2. Skins and themes seem like the same thing most of the time. However, a few include skins plus other stuff like macros. Is this common? Or are themes usually skins? Is this why some themes are packaged as .exe files?
3. The wiki pages mention a "theme installer package" by Guenter. Is this still hosted anywhere? It appears to be long gone.
4. The page with all the "old" style themes ( kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/K-MeleonThemes15 ) says that it is sorted by date. The dates on that page though are all over the place. Does it need to be re-ordered or do those dates on the page mean something else?
5. There are skins on this page: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/SkinsAndThrobbers
The Skins and Throbbers page mentions that skins may need to be updated for v0.8. The pure graphical assets on the page like the throbber .avi files and siria's background images should still work fine, but are all of the skins using an older/obsolete system? I would think so but I see a few minor edits of the page including one from gordon451 in 2014 as if the page is still relevant. I'm thinking I should re-arrange the page to bring the throbbers and backgrounds to the top and just leaves the skins how they are with a preface. There are also "Magic Backgrounds" which sound cool but 100% of the links are broken. Are these still available somewhere?
6. Karameleon is still on the wiki but based on the artist's comments in the linked thread ( http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?10,95544 ) I think I should comment it out or delete it. It seems the original author doesn't want it made publicly available.
7. The wiki's explanation of Toolbars.cfg ( http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/ToolbarsConfig ) hasn't been updated since 2006 and desga removed the link to that page in a 2008 edit. I think that means that it described a version of Toolbars.cfg used in version 1.0. Is there an explanation anywhere for what changed from this version of Toolbars.cfg to the KM 1.5 (2008) versions that I believe are still used by all the old-style themes?
8. The KM 1.5 Phoenity theme is not listed in the wiki. This seems like the perfect reference to anyone trying to create a new theme though. (Or would that be the KM74 themes?) Would it be okay to add a listing even though I (quite obviously) am not the author?
9. KM lets you change your icon size in the preferences dialog. This only seems to work on the Default skin for me. Does it only work on that skin, only on new skins, or only on skins that have different icon sizes?
10. Is there a kind of template skin that new users should work from if creating a new skin? I would think KM 1.5 or 74's Phoenity but don't want to assume.
If someone posts an answer to any of these questions or if I find one, I'll update this post.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2022 04:26AM by RJJIII.
I took the freedom to make the subject more descriptive.
K-meleon is backward compatible with skins. I'm using an "old" skin on 75.0.
75.0 is the version that included the new skinning system.
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?8,131009
On that thread might be some discussion about the new skin and around the forum too.
Obviously, anything previous 75.0 would understand only the old system.
The old system has been there from the beginning (my beginning was at 0.8 and it was there), not only form 1.5. Consider all 1.5 reference as a major version to glue things together.
The new system added the Default folder as a fallback to find default BMPs images and a skin.cfg file in JSON format, that was quite easier to add icons to commands. The old menuicons.cfg had the drawback that you have to declare several instances of the same image for each command using the same icon.
Later, or at the same time, it was also added a shared folder for any skin to use.
I couldn't tell. To me they have been always the same.
If someone included macros, maybe to include custom menus, or other things, was up to the one who created it.
The same with the packaging system.
Maybe for some is more useful an auto-extract exe. Personally I prefer a compressed file. Up to the packager.
I didn't know existed.
If it is some kind of theme installer, as said, isn't necessary. Unless someone doesn't know to extract a zip (where) or finds easier to run an exe.
Just what it tells "The most recently updated and/or added are at the top."
Looks like not everyone read/followed that rule. And then if they even add a date. Nothing else.
Re-order? Hard work, for not much interest. The interest would have been to have an standard or whatever to tell this is compatible with X version, regardless of the date.
They are very basic and they should work... I can't tell what changes were introduced on 0.8, as I'm here since then.
For availability you should check Archive.org. Always. Some pages they are archived, others not. That is the only safe boat.
Re-arrange...? The problem is that no one might still be using K-meleon prior to 1.x. They aren't much usable to date and if for academic purposes, for example, skins are irrelevant.
Now, as basic as they are, isn't that they couldn't or shouldn't be used on newer K-meleon versions, but... they are too basic. Focus, un-focus them? I bet 99% of users use the default skin on K-meleon 7x.y.
Actually, if you read the thread, it is here:
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?10,95544#msg-97037
Sadly, un-indexed, but the forum has more info than what it looks.
Nothing has changed AFAIK.
Have in mind that I'm using a toolbars.cfg I've carried to 75.0 from 0.8x..., with my tweaks, of course.
Any change should be on announcements subforum, but I haven't seen one on a quick view.
Do you mean this?:
https://web.archive.org/web/20030118101919/http://phoenity.com/kmeleon.html
What do you mean by listing? Add a zip?, there it is a link. Instead a dead link, Archive.org's one.
There are a few fallbacks and differences between new and old and it was related to the default size in toolbars.cfg, the default on skin.cfg and the size for each icon. Actually you can use a 4K icon and display it as 16x16, so imagine...
Time ago I fiddle with them but... don't ask, lost in my memory, better test. There might be some info by me on the forum, somewhere..., some thread...
The Toolbars size in the preference dialog... I don't remember what it does. Set the minimum default size, I guess. Note, though, that this is set on toolbars.cfg too.
Well, it is not AFAIK. The skin system is quite... modular? independent?
You can add a lot of features to set a "theme" or just some little changes.
Most of my knowledge and other what would like to join this thread have most of the knowledge, beyond the wiki manuals, after try-error.
The template is the manual scattered all over the wiki. Toolbars.cfg here, menuicons.cfg there, etc.
Use whatever you feel comfortable. From my point of view, as an open source project, and when such skins are defaulted, are made to the public the same way you can use it and adapt, so if you want to create a template...
But, as you noted, there should be two templates, one for old system (without skin.cfg, default folder and shared folder), and another for the new.
Sorry, for any missing info, mistake or whatever, this is a very long reply and lost memories
SKINS:
Two possible traps for the clueless, if downloading alternative skins:
on rare occasions command/function names were changed with new KM-versions, e.g. the History button. No prob to change it manually, but necessary to be aware of such things. And can be quite a pain to visually compare an alternative skin config with the default skin of the matching KM-version, searching command differences...
What normal users also wouldn't suspect, the number of available buttons also fully depends on the person who wrote the toolbars.cfg. Very often especially in ancient skins a few younger buttons are missing. Again, in theory no prob to add them manually, just copy/paste and make sure to have an icon pic - but users need to be aware and feel like fiddling.
Of course, what normal users expect from another skin, is just a different button look, nothing else. But it just doesn't work that way in KM.
If only the look matters, even icons from the most ancient skins can be copied over - if users make sure themselves the icon-lines in toolbars.cfg are matching... And here's yet another trap: not even the icon-bar filenames and the single icon numbers are matching across all skins, depending on the fancy of the skin author! Phoenity in KM1.5 would have been a perfect template, but already the default skin in KM1.6 was a complete mess filename-wise, partly different for normal and large sizes.
That's exactly what you're doing too:
improving little bits on ancient WIKI pages, which is basically good but the rest of the page stays outdated. Then readers will look at the page date and get confused, assuming the whole page were still relevant... It's a prob, sometimes it might be better to just keep the old date as a warning and not touch anything, if not really important.
BTW the old skin system already used a "default" skin folder too, where e.g. macros would throw macro-icons inside. The prob was this folder didn't exist out-of-box in old KM, therefore not intuitive, so again users were sometimes confused when an author instructed to put icons in the default folder.
And now since the NEW skin system came out, macro writers became undecided in which folder to place the macro icons - some which only target the latest-greatest KM-version place them in the new Shared folder, but since mine shall work in ALL KM-versions, old and new, I still toss them into Default folder. Still works in both.
Can't remember much details, and John reminded me a bit... Guess the main goal of the new skin system was
1) to automize different icon sizes, without needing different icon pics, only 1 (and this automatic size is what you can change in the Prefs!) This eliminated the need for different skin folders like "Phoenity(Large)"
(Hmm... dimly remember the "zooming" turned out a bit fuzzy, depending if a specific size was alreay contained/prepared in a special ico-format (?) or not. So, if recalling right, instead of needing different icon sizes in different folders with diff toolbars.cfg, the different icons are still needed but merged into a multi-size ico...)
2) to easily set the same icon for all sorts of uses with 1 command, especially for menus too. Especially the old menuicons.cfg was a pain (not sure how many besides myself ever used it, and it was impossible to include a ready-made one just for a macro button)
On the other hand, the new system has a major drawback too, and this is skin.cfg. Manually editing inside complicated json-code or some such, uggh. Dorian was planning to add a GUI for it, but sadly didn't get around anymore.
What IS easier is setting it by macro though!
So sometimes I still find the old system easier to understand, more intuitive for people who like fiddling with files manually, to understand exactly how things work - but the new system is more automatic, which is easier for end users who prefer point&click.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2022 05:28PM by siria.
Here's the previous version: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/view;control+cookies?version=2
For pages that are outdated/deprecated, I've been trying to add brief explanations at the top like this: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/add_icq
I think that's more useful than leaving the page alone for a few reasons. The last revision on many pages is when vandalism was fixed. That's necessary but also gives the impression that the page was updated recently. A brief explanation let's a reader know for sure both that the content is out of date but also specifically why that's a problem.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2022 01:41AM by RJJIII.
I'll likely leave the 3 sections listing themes/skins how they are. After thinking about it and reading your (and siria's) responses, I'm realizing that it would be a lot of work for very little benefit.
I'll focus on updating the skin/theme tutorial and test things as I go. Since the skins are so complicated (to me at least) I'll post up drafts of anything I'm thinking about updating regarding skins.
Here, buried in the forum, there is a quite self-explanatory image (from my point of view, well I did it XD) of how the JSON works on skin.cfg.
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?8,131009,131237#msg-131237
I post here a thumbnail too so another place to look at for it:
Now that I look it, it is a little incomplete, but, well, it helps.
Here it is a more detailed view of what can be accomplished.
An image is defined.
Then the commands.
As an image is a bunch of icons in line, the third icon is being used for more than one command, so becomes an array of commands. If not used, empty "".
That also remind me that icons aren't as previous versions. Images are three rows with hot (hover/active/pressed button), cold (stand by button) and dead (disabled) icons.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2022 02:18PM by JohnHell.
Thanks very much, John and siria. And yes, your image helped explain a lot. I've made a 75-style skin that adds higher resolution icons (32 and 48 pixels) and tried to pack it with comments:
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?10,156213,156220#msg-156220
I've got a rough draft of a skinning tutorial update here:
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/view;sandbox?version=101
I tried to start with basic things and gradually ramp up to more complex issues. Anybody is welcome to give feedback or point out my mistakes. I'll probably change a few things in the future as I work my way through experimenting with making a theme.
Also, I've attached an updated version of the Phoenity theme. I updated the history command (which was the only thing not working from KM 1.5). I'm also updating the comments. Feel free to suggest anything that should be in the update.
Edit: I'm adding this onto my last post rather than bumping the thread. I think I've found the answers to my various questions about themes. I've made a thread with a reference 75-style theme and will make a thread soon with Phoenity updated for KM 75/76. I changed the title of the thread to add "SOLVED." Many thanks again to both of you!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2022 04:26AM by RJJIII.
Attachments:
Phoenity_Update_WIP.zip (88.7 KB)
All about K-Meleon icons, skins and throbbers.
Many Questions about skins and themes and through versions (SOLVED)
Posted by:
RJJIII
Date: May 19, 2022 07:41AM
I want to update the wiki documentation on themes but I have so many questions. I'm going to list my questions and hope that some folks in the community know the answers to at least some of these:
1. There are (I think) 2 skin systems. The "old" skin system is used by the Klassic theme and pretty much also themes from the community. It is supported from version 1.5 to 76. A "new" skin system was introduced in version 75+76, but it's only used it seems for the "Default" theme. What then are themes on this page: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/KMeleonThemesWiki
They appear similar to the "old" style skins but even older. KM 1.5 came out in 2008, but a few of those themes were updated in 2009. Were they updated to the (then new) "old" system? Should any of these themes work with KM 76?
2. Skins and themes seem like the same thing most of the time. However, a few include skins plus other stuff like macros. Is this common? Or are themes usually skins? Is this why some themes are packaged as .exe files?
3. The wiki pages mention a "theme installer package" by Guenter. Is this still hosted anywhere? It appears to be long gone.
4. The page with all the "old" style themes ( kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/K-MeleonThemes15 ) says that it is sorted by date. The dates on that page though are all over the place. Does it need to be re-ordered or do those dates on the page mean something else?
5. There are skins on this page: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/SkinsAndThrobbers
The Skins and Throbbers page mentions that skins may need to be updated for v0.8. The pure graphical assets on the page like the throbber .avi files and siria's background images should still work fine, but are all of the skins using an older/obsolete system? I would think so but I see a few minor edits of the page including one from gordon451 in 2014 as if the page is still relevant. I'm thinking I should re-arrange the page to bring the throbbers and backgrounds to the top and just leaves the skins how they are with a preface. There are also "Magic Backgrounds" which sound cool but 100% of the links are broken. Are these still available somewhere?
6. Karameleon is still on the wiki but based on the artist's comments in the linked thread ( http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?10,95544 ) I think I should comment it out or delete it. It seems the original author doesn't want it made publicly available.
7. The wiki's explanation of Toolbars.cfg ( http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/ToolbarsConfig ) hasn't been updated since 2006 and desga removed the link to that page in a 2008 edit. I think that means that it described a version of Toolbars.cfg used in version 1.0. Is there an explanation anywhere for what changed from this version of Toolbars.cfg to the KM 1.5 (2008) versions that I believe are still used by all the old-style themes?
8. The KM 1.5 Phoenity theme is not listed in the wiki. This seems like the perfect reference to anyone trying to create a new theme though. (Or would that be the KM74 themes?) Would it be okay to add a listing even though I (quite obviously) am not the author?
9. KM lets you change your icon size in the preferences dialog. This only seems to work on the Default skin for me. Does it only work on that skin, only on new skins, or only on skins that have different icon sizes?
10. Is there a kind of template skin that new users should work from if creating a new skin? I would think KM 1.5 or 74's Phoenity but don't want to assume.
If someone posts an answer to any of these questions or if I find one, I'll update this post.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2022 04:26AM by RJJIII.
Re: Many Questions about skins and themes and through versions
Posted by:
JohnHell
Date: May 19, 2022 03:39PM
I took the freedom to make the subject more descriptive.
Quote
RJJIII
1. There are (I think) 2 skin systems. The "old" skin system is used by the Klassic theme and pretty much also themes from the community. It is supported from version 1.5 to 76. A "new" skin system was introduced in version 75+76, but it's only used it seems for the "Default" theme. What then are themes on this page: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/KMeleonThemesWiki
They appear similar to the "old" style skins but even older. KM 1.5 came out in 2008, but a few of those themes were updated in 2009. Were they updated to the (then new) "old" system? Should any of these themes work with KM 76?
K-meleon is backward compatible with skins. I'm using an "old" skin on 75.0.
75.0 is the version that included the new skinning system.
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?8,131009
On that thread might be some discussion about the new skin and around the forum too.
Obviously, anything previous 75.0 would understand only the old system.
The old system has been there from the beginning (my beginning was at 0.8 and it was there), not only form 1.5. Consider all 1.5 reference as a major version to glue things together.
The new system added the Default folder as a fallback to find default BMPs images and a skin.cfg file in JSON format, that was quite easier to add icons to commands. The old menuicons.cfg had the drawback that you have to declare several instances of the same image for each command using the same icon.
Later, or at the same time, it was also added a shared folder for any skin to use.
Quote
RJJIII
2. Skins and themes seem like the same thing most of the time. However, a few include skins plus other stuff like macros. Is this common? Or are themes usually skins? Is this why some themes are packaged as .exe files?
I couldn't tell. To me they have been always the same.
If someone included macros, maybe to include custom menus, or other things, was up to the one who created it.
The same with the packaging system.
Maybe for some is more useful an auto-extract exe. Personally I prefer a compressed file. Up to the packager.
Quote
RJJIII
3. The wiki pages mention a "theme installer package" by Guenter. Is this still hosted anywhere? It appears to be long gone.
I didn't know existed.
If it is some kind of theme installer, as said, isn't necessary. Unless someone doesn't know to extract a zip (where) or finds easier to run an exe.
Quote
RJJIII
4. The page with all the "old" style themes ( http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/K-MeleonThemes15 ) says that it is sorted by date. The dates on that page though are all over the place. Does it need to be re-ordered or do those dates on the page mean something else?
Just what it tells "The most recently updated and/or added are at the top."
Looks like not everyone read/followed that rule. And then if they even add a date. Nothing else.
Re-order? Hard work, for not much interest. The interest would have been to have an standard or whatever to tell this is compatible with X version, regardless of the date.
Quote
RJJIII
5. There are skins on this page: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/SkinsAndThrobbers
The Skins and Throbbers page mentions that skins may need to be updated for v0.8. The pure graphical assets on the page like the throbber .avi files and siria's background images should still work fine, but are all of the skins using an older/obsolete system? I would think so but I see a few minor edits of the page including one from gordon451 in 2014 as if the page is still relevant. I'm thinking I should re-arrange the page to bring the throbbers and backgrounds to the top and just leaves the skins how they are with a preface. There are also "Magic Backgrounds" which sound cool but 100% of the links are broken. Are these still available somewhere?
They are very basic and they should work... I can't tell what changes were introduced on 0.8, as I'm here since then.
For availability you should check Archive.org. Always. Some pages they are archived, others not. That is the only safe boat.
Re-arrange...? The problem is that no one might still be using K-meleon prior to 1.x. They aren't much usable to date and if for academic purposes, for example, skins are irrelevant.
Now, as basic as they are, isn't that they couldn't or shouldn't be used on newer K-meleon versions, but... they are too basic. Focus, un-focus them? I bet 99% of users use the default skin on K-meleon 7x.y.
Quote
RJJIII
6. Karameleon is still on the wiki but based on the artist's comments in the linked thread ( http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?10,95544 ) I think I should comment it out or delete it. It seems the original author doesn't want it made publicly available.
Actually, if you read the thread, it is here:
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?10,95544#msg-97037
Sadly, un-indexed, but the forum has more info than what it looks.
Quote
RJJIII
7. The wiki's explanation of Toolbars.cfg ( http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/ToolbarsConfig ) hasn't been updated since 2006 and desga removed the link to that page in a 2008 edit. I think that means that it described a version of Toolbars.cfg used in version 1.0. Is there an explanation anywhere for what changed from this version of Toolbars.cfg to the KM 1.5 (2008) versions that I believe are still used by all the old-style themes?
Nothing has changed AFAIK.
Have in mind that I'm using a toolbars.cfg I've carried to 75.0 from 0.8x..., with my tweaks, of course.
Any change should be on announcements subforum, but I haven't seen one on a quick view.
Quote
RJJIII
8. The KM 1.5 Phoenity theme is not listed in the wiki. This seems like the perfect reference to anyone trying to create a new theme though. (Or would that be the KM74 themes?) Would it be okay to add a listing even though I (quite obviously) am not the author?
Do you mean this?:
https://web.archive.org/web/20030118101919/http://phoenity.com/kmeleon.html
What do you mean by listing? Add a zip?, there it is a link. Instead a dead link, Archive.org's one.
Quote
RJJIII
9. KM lets you change your icon size in the preferences dialog. This only seems to work on the Default skin for me. Does it only work on that skin, only on new skins, or only on skins that have different icon sizes?
There are a few fallbacks and differences between new and old and it was related to the default size in toolbars.cfg, the default on skin.cfg and the size for each icon. Actually you can use a 4K icon and display it as 16x16, so imagine...
Time ago I fiddle with them but... don't ask, lost in my memory, better test. There might be some info by me on the forum, somewhere..., some thread...
The Toolbars size in the preference dialog... I don't remember what it does. Set the minimum default size, I guess. Note, though, that this is set on toolbars.cfg too.
Quote
RJJIII
10. Is there a kind of template skin that new users should work from if creating a new skin? I would think KM 1.5 or 74's Phoenity but don't want to assume.
Well, it is not AFAIK. The skin system is quite... modular? independent?
You can add a lot of features to set a "theme" or just some little changes.
Most of my knowledge and other what would like to join this thread have most of the knowledge, beyond the wiki manuals, after try-error.
The template is the manual scattered all over the wiki. Toolbars.cfg here, menuicons.cfg there, etc.
Use whatever you feel comfortable. From my point of view, as an open source project, and when such skins are defaulted, are made to the public the same way you can use it and adapt, so if you want to create a template...
But, as you noted, there should be two templates, one for old system (without skin.cfg, default folder and shared folder), and another for the new.
Sorry, for any missing info, mistake or whatever, this is a very long reply and lost memories
Re: Many Questions about skins and themes and through versions
Posted by:
siria
Date: May 19, 2022 05:02PM
SKINS:
Two possible traps for the clueless, if downloading alternative skins:
on rare occasions command/function names were changed with new KM-versions, e.g. the History button. No prob to change it manually, but necessary to be aware of such things. And can be quite a pain to visually compare an alternative skin config with the default skin of the matching KM-version, searching command differences...
What normal users also wouldn't suspect, the number of available buttons also fully depends on the person who wrote the toolbars.cfg. Very often especially in ancient skins a few younger buttons are missing. Again, in theory no prob to add them manually, just copy/paste and make sure to have an icon pic - but users need to be aware and feel like fiddling.
Of course, what normal users expect from another skin, is just a different button look, nothing else. But it just doesn't work that way in KM.
If only the look matters, even icons from the most ancient skins can be copied over - if users make sure themselves the icon-lines in toolbars.cfg are matching... And here's yet another trap: not even the icon-bar filenames and the single icon numbers are matching across all skins, depending on the fancy of the skin author! Phoenity in KM1.5 would have been a perfect template, but already the default skin in KM1.6 was a complete mess filename-wise, partly different for normal and large sizes.
Quote
images should still work fine, but are all of the skins using an older/obsolete system?
I would think so but I see a few minor edits of the page including one from
gordon451 in 2014 as if the page is still relevant.
That's exactly what you're doing too:
improving little bits on ancient WIKI pages, which is basically good but the rest of the page stays outdated. Then readers will look at the page date and get confused, assuming the whole page were still relevant... It's a prob, sometimes it might be better to just keep the old date as a warning and not touch anything, if not really important.
BTW the old skin system already used a "default" skin folder too, where e.g. macros would throw macro-icons inside. The prob was this folder didn't exist out-of-box in old KM, therefore not intuitive, so again users were sometimes confused when an author instructed to put icons in the default folder.
And now since the NEW skin system came out, macro writers became undecided in which folder to place the macro icons - some which only target the latest-greatest KM-version place them in the new Shared folder, but since mine shall work in ALL KM-versions, old and new, I still toss them into Default folder. Still works in both.
Can't remember much details, and John reminded me a bit... Guess the main goal of the new skin system was
1) to automize different icon sizes, without needing different icon pics, only 1 (and this automatic size is what you can change in the Prefs!) This eliminated the need for different skin folders like "Phoenity(Large)"
(Hmm... dimly remember the "zooming" turned out a bit fuzzy, depending if a specific size was alreay contained/prepared in a special ico-format (?) or not. So, if recalling right, instead of needing different icon sizes in different folders with diff toolbars.cfg, the different icons are still needed but merged into a multi-size ico...)
2) to easily set the same icon for all sorts of uses with 1 command, especially for menus too. Especially the old menuicons.cfg was a pain (not sure how many besides myself ever used it, and it was impossible to include a ready-made one just for a macro button)
On the other hand, the new system has a major drawback too, and this is skin.cfg. Manually editing inside complicated json-code or some such, uggh. Dorian was planning to add a GUI for it, but sadly didn't get around anymore.
What IS easier is setting it by macro though!
So sometimes I still find the old system easier to understand, more intuitive for people who like fiddling with files manually, to understand exactly how things work - but the new system is more automatic, which is easier for end users who prefer point&click.
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/19/2022 05:28PM by siria.
Re: Many Questions about skins and themes and through versions
Posted by:
RJJIII
Date: May 20, 2022 01:40AM
Okay, that actually clears up a good deal of my confusion.Quote
siria
SKINS:
Two possible traps for the clueless, if downloading alternative skins:
on rare occasions command/function names were changed with new KM-versions, e.g. the History button. No prob to change it manually, but necessary to be aware of such things. And can be quite a pain to visually compare an alternative skin config with the default skin of the matching KM-version, searching command differences...
What normal users also wouldn't suspect, the number of available buttons also fully depends on the person who wrote the toolbars.cfg. Very often especially in ancient skins a few younger buttons are missing. Again, in theory no prob to add them manually, just copy/paste and make sure to have an icon pic - but users need to be aware and feel like fiddling.
Of course, what normal users expect from another skin, is just a different button look, nothing else. But it just doesn't work that way in KM.
If only the look matters, even icons from the most ancient skins can be copied over - if users make sure themselves the icon-lines in toolbars.cfg are matching... And here's yet another trap: not even the icon-bar filenames and the single icon numbers are matching across all skins, depending on the fancy of the skin author! Phoenity in KM1.5 would have been a perfect template, but already the default skin in KM1.6 was a complete mess filename-wise, partly different for normal and large sizes.
Not really. Here's a page I updated recently: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/control+cookiesQuote
Quote
images should still work fine, but are all of the skins using an older/obsolete system?
I would think so but I see a few minor edits of the page including one from
gordon451 in 2014 as if the page is still relevant.
That's exactly what you're doing too:
improving little bits on ancient WIKI pages, which is basically good but the rest of the page stays outdated. Then readers will look at the page date and get confused, assuming the whole page were still relevant... It's a prob, sometimes it might be better to just keep the old date as a warning and not touch anything, if not really important.
Here's the previous version: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/view;control+cookies?version=2
For pages that are outdated/deprecated, I've been trying to add brief explanations at the top like this: http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/add_icq
I think that's more useful than leaving the page alone for a few reasons. The last revision on many pages is when vandalism was fixed. That's necessary but also gives the impression that the page was updated recently. A brief explanation let's a reader know for sure both that the content is out of date but also specifically why that's a problem.
Yeah, the default theme in 75/76 contains 16 and 24 pixel icons. Above that it scales and becomes fuzzy. Also, it somehow automatically adjusts between those 2 sizes. On an old XP box with low resolution it gives me 16 pixel icons and on my newer laptop it gives me 24 pixel. I think it's referencing a setting from somewhere in Windows.Quote
BTW the old skin system already used a "default" skin folder too, where e.g. macros would throw macro-icons inside. The prob was this folder didn't exist out-of-box in old KM, therefore not intuitive, so again users were sometimes confused when an author instructed to put icons in the default folder.
And now since the NEW skin system came out, macro writers became undecided in which folder to place the macro icons - some which only target the latest-greatest KM-version place them in the new Shared folder, but since mine shall work in ALL KM-versions, old and new, I still toss them into Default folder. Still works in both.
Can't remember much details, and John reminded me a bit... Guess the main goal of the new skin system was
1) to automize different icon sizes, without needing different icon pics, only 1 (and this automatic size is what you can change in the Prefs!) This eliminated the need for different skin folders like "Phoenity(Large)"
(Hmm... dimly remember the "zooming" turned out a bit fuzzy, depending if a specific size was alreay contained/prepared in a special ico-format (?) or not. So, if recalling right, instead of needing different icon sizes in different folders with diff toolbars.cfg, the different icons are still needed but merged into a multi-size ico...)
I think most people found the old system easier to understand. Almost every theme I try out is using the old style.Quote
2) to easily set the same icon for all sorts of uses with 1 command, especially for menus too. Especially the old menuicons.cfg was a pain (not sure how many besides myself ever used it, and it was impossible to include a ready-made one just for a macro button)
On the other hand, the new system has a major drawback too, and this is skin.cfg. Manually editing inside complicated json-code or some such, uggh. Dorian was planning to add a GUI for it, but sadly didn't get around anymore.
What IS easier is setting it by macro though!
So sometimes I still find the old system easier to understand, more intuitive for people who like fiddling with files manually, to understand exactly how things work - but the new system is more automatic, which is easier for end users who prefer point&click.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/20/2022 01:41AM by RJJIII.
Re: Many Questions about skins and themes and through versions
Posted by:
RJJIII
Date: May 20, 2022 02:03AM
ThanksQuote
JohnHell
I took the freedom to make the subject more descriptive.
I appreciate it all. It gives me plenty to look through.Quote
Sorry, for any missing info, mistake or whatever, this is a very long reply and lost memories
I'll likely leave the 3 sections listing themes/skins how they are. After thinking about it and reading your (and siria's) responses, I'm realizing that it would be a lot of work for very little benefit.
I'll focus on updating the skin/theme tutorial and test things as I go. Since the skins are so complicated (to me at least) I'll post up drafts of anything I'm thinking about updating regarding skins.
Re: Many Questions about skins and themes and through versions
Posted by:
JohnHell
Date: May 20, 2022 09:01PM
Quote
RJJIII
I think most people found the old system easier to understand. Almost every theme I try out is using the old style.Quote
siria
So sometimes I still find the old system easier to understand, more intuitive for people who like fiddling with files manually, to understand exactly how things work - but the new system is more automatic, which is easier for end users who prefer point&click.
Quote
RJJIII
I'll focus on updating the skin/theme tutorial and test things as I go. Since the skins are so complicated (to me at least) I'll post up drafts of anything I'm thinking about updating regarding skins.
Here, buried in the forum, there is a quite self-explanatory image (from my point of view, well I did it XD) of how the JSON works on skin.cfg.
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?8,131009,131237#msg-131237
I post here a thumbnail too so another place to look at for it:
Now that I look it, it is a little incomplete, but, well, it helps.
Here it is a more detailed view of what can be accomplished.
An image is defined.
Then the commands.
As an image is a bunch of icons in line, the third icon is being used for more than one command, so becomes an array of commands. If not used, empty "".
"images" :[{
"name":"maintoolbar75.bmp",
"width": 20,
"height": 20
}],
"commands" : [
"ID_NAV_BACK",
"ID_NAV_FORWARD",
["ID_NAV_STOP","macros(ESC_stop)"],
"ID_NAV_RELOAD",
"ID_NAV_HOME",
"ID_NAV_SEARCH",
"ID_FILE_SAVE_AS",
"ID_FILE_PRINT",
"ID_FONT_INCREASE",
"ID_LINK_KMELEON_FORUM",
"ID_LINK_KMELEON_HOME",
"",
"ID_FILE_OPEN",
"ID_LINK_KMELEON_FAQ",
"",
"ID_APP_ABOUT"
]
}
That also remind me that icons aren't as previous versions. Images are three rows with hot (hover/active/pressed button), cold (stand by button) and dead (disabled) icons.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 05/21/2022 02:18PM by JohnHell.
Re: Many Questions about skins and themes and through versions
Posted by:
RJJIII
Date: June 04, 2022 03:59AM
Thanks very much, John and siria. And yes, your image helped explain a lot. I've made a 75-style skin that adds higher resolution icons (32 and 48 pixels) and tried to pack it with comments:
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/forum/read.php?10,156213,156220#msg-156220
I've got a rough draft of a skinning tutorial update here:
http://kmeleonbrowser.org/wiki/view;sandbox?version=101
I tried to start with basic things and gradually ramp up to more complex issues. Anybody is welcome to give feedback or point out my mistakes. I'll probably change a few things in the future as I work my way through experimenting with making a theme.
Also, I've attached an updated version of the Phoenity theme. I updated the history command (which was the only thing not working from KM 1.5). I'm also updating the comments. Feel free to suggest anything that should be in the update.
Edit: I'm adding this onto my last post rather than bumping the thread. I think I've found the answers to my various questions about themes. I've made a thread with a reference 75-style theme and will make a thread soon with Phoenity updated for KM 75/76. I changed the title of the thread to add "SOLVED." Many thanks again to both of you!
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2022 04:26AM by RJJIII.
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